Coming Out As Bisexual with "Boyslut" Author

ZACHARY ZANE

0:06:40 - Danielle Bezalel

Zachary Zane hello, welcome to the podcast. 

0:06:48 - Zachary Zane

Hello, thank you for having me here. 

0:06:50 - Danielle Bezalel

Thrilled to have you. You were one of the few guests who have very much impacted me personally. 

0:06:59 - Zachary Zane

I feel honored. Can I ask how specifically is that? Are we delving just right into it here? 

0:07:06 - Danielle Bezalel

We could. Yeah, we could spoil it a little bit and get into it. But you know I said this through you or through email to you after going to your book event and we're going to be talking all today about Boy Slut, your memoir and I just felt like you gave me, and so many others I'm sure, the permission to really explore the bisexuality label for myself and ever since I have done that and I've emailed you, being like I use that label kind of because of you and that's really fucking cool and I'm really appreciative of that and it just feels really great to have that permission and really like associate myself with that and we can get into it a little bit more in the interview. But I just really was struck by you at your book event and I've told so many people about it and it's really fun to have such a profound experience. 

0:07:59 - Zachary Zane

Thank you. Thank you so much. I don't know what else to say. And, yeah, I know we're going to talk more about it later, so I won't start rambling just yet. I'll say my rambles for later. Yes. 

0:08:09 - Danielle Bezalel

But yeah, I think, like you know, as a sex educator and I'm sure for you, as someone who's a professional in this field, you're a writer. I'll let you introduce yourself in a hot second to not rain on your parade, but you know, you talk to a lot of people and you learn from a lot of different people and some of it feels very far away, like, oh, I can appreciate this, I'm understanding how you know how relevant this is to other people's lives and I support it and I'm an advocate. But when it touches you personally and makes you kind of reflect about your own ideas and the way in which you see yourself in the world and how okay or fabulous even you might feel afterwards, you know there's there's a difference there, and so I just want to acknowledge that you, like you, have played a very important role in that for me, which is really cool. 

0:08:58 - Zachary Zane

Thank you, thank you yeah. 

0:09:00 - Danielle Bezalel

So maybe people are listening. They're like who the fuck is this? I have no idea who you are. I want to understand how DB is you know relating to Zachary Zane in any sort of way? So why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself, tell us about your work and your book. Voice Lot. 

0:09:17 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So my name is Zachary Zane and I am a sex writer and columnist. I write the Sex and Relationship Advice column Sexplated at Men's Health Magazine. I also recently got a non-monogamy column at Cosmopolitan at Cosmo called Navigating Non-Monogamy, and that column is really special to me because and when I pitched it to them specifically, I was like everyone in their mother is seemingly polyamorous or ethically non-monogamous or opening up the relationship. 

Right now there is so much content out there for open relationships, but it's only actually two types of articles. It's just how to open up your relationship and how to navigate jealousy. I've been polyamorous for nearly a decade. I don't really struggle with jealousy that much anymore. If I do get jealous, I tell my partner she reassures me, he reassures me, whoever it is reassures me, we're good to go and I'm not opening up my relationship. I've been doing it for a decade and I'm like and there's still 10 billion things I struggle with in polyamory that are not being addressed right now, and so specifically, it's a column looking at these other aspects of polyamory and I share all the mistakes I've made in my non-monogamous journey, so hopefully you don't have to. So that's just like a new column that came out. I'm really excited for it. 

It's at Cosmo, it's monthly, but what we're here to discuss is my book that came out just a couple of months ago, called Boy Slut A Memoir and Manifesto, and this book, in short, is about how to overcome sexual shame. And I talk about my journey from being someone who I actually grew up in a very sex positive household and still I had so much sexual shame, and that's just because sex negativity is so pervasive, it is so insidious. I pick it up from you know, my teachers, media, culture, peers, everywhere. So even though my parents were sex positive, I still had this idea that sex was bad, nudity was bad, same sex attractions were bad, and that I was this bad person. So it was kind of important for me to first of all illustrate that, like, no matter who you are, you probably don't have a great relationship with sex, unless if you work to unpack this, because I often feel like a lot of these books come from a place of like oh, I was, like, grew up in a very Christian household, I was kicked out of my family for being gay, and that kind of like justifies their sexual shame. 

And at first I was like, why did I have sexual shame. I have no justification for it. Like I grew up in a sex positive household, I shouldn't, I'm not allowed to feel this way. Why do I feel this way? And it's like no, we all feel this way, to varying degrees, because we live in society, unless if we lived on, you know, a fucking nudist colony without internet, a polyamorous newest colony in the middle of Bumblefuck, no, or without internet, maybe those guys don't have sexual shame. 

0:11:56 - Danielle Bezalel

But they have a lot of not other things too. They're missing out on a lot of things. 

0:12:00 - Zachary Zane

They also don't have the internet. So you know like, uh, yeah, exactly, um, and so a lot of this book is talking about like three sections, three parts in general that are really important to me. So number one is bisexuality. I haven't seen kind of a memoir written by a man who's bisexual, um, and we obviously have different experiences from gay people, from other queer people, whatever it is, and it was really important for me to kind of address the male bisexual experience, discuss how to overcome internalized biphobia, how, to date while being bisexual, um, how to exist in a world where there is so much biphobia and people don't believe you exist, like, how do you respond to biphobic comments without losing your mind, without feeling like you have to justify or sexuality to everyone you meet? So that's one of the main things I talk about. I talk about polyamory, my journey within that, and then I talk about kinks and I feel like, um, I think a lot of us feel a lot of shame for our sexual desires and I have some really intense sexual desires that I discuss rather graphically in the book. Uh, so this book is raunchy. I'm letting you know now it's not for everyone. 

I just got a really funny review. That was like despite the grading language. Uh, I really enjoyed the book and I thought it was funny. I'm like the book was called Boy Slut, like what the fuck did you think you were going to get? 

0:13:20 - Danielle Bezalel

Did you? 

0:13:20 - Zachary Zane

i think it was not going to be cursing and raunchy sex content here, right, and it also covers other sections too, right? So I talk about and we were talking this a little bit beforehand kind of offline here, but I have a chapter on rejection Specifically. Why are we so bad at navigating rejection when it's probably the most universal experience? We've all been rejected, we've all rejected other people, and yet we respond to it terribly. And how do we reach a place where rejection is less painful? How do we reach a place where, when we reject someone and we do so kindly and they respond poorly, we don't get upset, we're able to be like, hey, I understand that those are their feelings, we can't control their feelings and of course, I feel bad that they feel this way, but also recognizing that I didn't actually do anything wrong here and what I did by being honest and kind and direct, even though they responded to it poorly was still the correct thing for me to do and I should be happy with my response. 

0:14:13 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, these are just just a few things. Just a few casual, lighthearted things here, nothing much, and I'm you. 

0:14:20 - Zachary Zane

Nothing much that I kind of address in this book and there's also just some fun, graphic, raunchy sex. It's hybrid and has a very humorous capacity. 

0:14:29 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, you definitely do. 

0:14:31 - Zachary Zane

And talk about sex parties, stuff like that. So I think it's a pretty fun book and I think truly anyone but especially queer people, especially bi people, kinky people, poly people, alternative queers, outcasts, faggots these are the people I think would really really benefit the most from my book. But again, we all experience sexual shame. So I feel like anyone, any reader, could really learn something and just enjoy reading it. 

0:14:53 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, you just said nine million things that I want to respond to, but I think that, okay, the first thing I'll say is I'm currently in the middle of your book and your voice really comes through. I'm really enjoying it. So far. It's like super funny, very confident, very authentic, sarcastic, silly, kind of like sassy, like very comfortable with yourself and your voice and I feel like you know that feeling where you're listening to a pot, I listen to armchair expert with Dax Shepard, like a million hours of it, and you have this like social relationship of like oh, I know where they like to go, to Hawaii, and like all that shit. I do kind of feel that with you in your book I really feel like I know the real you that you're portraying and that you're sharing with people, or what you're choosing to share, which is very nice. As a reader, Thank you. 

0:15:40 - Zachary Zane

This was very vulnerable of me in a way that I think people like, well, zach, you're always vulnerable and I'm like, well, yes and no. I think people misconstrue my sexual openness with vulnerability because a lot of people don't feel comfortable talking about sex. So I can talk about my hairy asshole getting dp'd or getting spit roasted or gagging on a cock and like that's actually very safe for me, like I enjoy being a disgusting little pervert and sex positive maniac, whatever the fuck you want to call me. 

You know, what I mean. Like that stuff, I don't feel ashamed about that stuff, I don't feel particularly vulnerable. We all have sex. I embrace it, it's fun, I love it. But like talking about my relationship with my family, talking about my relationships, you know breakups where I've treated people poorly in the past, where like yeah, when I wasn't able to reject people the right way. Like these are the more vulnerable things that I actually don't discuss as much. And like if you follow me on social media, which everyone should Zachry's ain't underscore on Instagram. 

Shameless, shameless plug in there early shameless plug, right, like, yeah, I keep my content. It's very fun, it's very sexy, it's very playful, but I'm not talking about getting my heart broken from a breakup, you know what I mean. Like, that's not kind of the content I post online. So this was kind of a different level of transparency and vulnerability that I haven't always shared in my writing, so it was definitely different for me. 

0:16:59 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, and I felt so let me backup a little bit because in the beginning of the interview we kind of like spoiled it and like this is kind of a hard launch, because I personally, as Danielle DB, have not really talked about like my own bisexuality, like my own kind of like figuring that out. This is like a hard launch of that. I'd like to congratulate you. I've kind of, like you know, sprinkled it in here and there. I think, as you know, being like a public persona with you know people who are interested in learning from you online, through a podcast, through social media, there's a certain level that you choose to share about yourself, and then there's kind of this line that you decide do I want to cross that, do I not? How much do I want to share with the people who maybe have a parasocial relationship with me? Like there are people listening to this podcast and I don't know them personally and maybe they feel like they really know me, and so this is another element of that, and so I felt like when I went to your event, which was in San Francisco, you were kind of reading the first chapter of your book, you were answering questions, and there were just so many times where I felt like you were being vulnerable, and that did kind of allow me to be vulnerable and reflect on my own kind of path. 

And I think that this is a very common experience, at least in my like group of friends and like the people who I've spoken to, specifically women who have been dating like cis male partners for a really long time, are in monogamous relationships and are kind of slowly unpacking the fact that maybe there is a little bit more to the way in which that they see themselves, regardless of them being in love with their partner, what that relationship is like, and I think that that has been really eye opening to me and this kind of thing of like well, yeah, sure, I've had like feelings for women, but I don't know, maybe I'm just, like you know, sexually fluid. 

I don't really know if, like the bilabel, like if you know all the things that you said at your event and in your book of like this sexual shame, this idea of like this not enoughness of being able to identify as bisexual, and I wonder if you can like talk a little bit about that, because I think that other women listening and obviously you're speaking for by men or chatting with by men about this as well, like what are ways that you can kind of like help reframe this idea for other people, kind of how I felt it was reframed. 

0:19:20 - Zachary Zane

Yeah, absolutely so. Actually, bro, I've written one piece for the New York Times in my career and it was an op-ed and I forgot what they called it. Shit, I should have. I should have looked it up. It was essentially just being like, yes, you are by enough. And it was specifically really addressing, you know, cis women in relationships with men, in monogamous relationships with men, who often do not feel like they are by enough. They're queer enough, they don't want to claim a bisexual label, they feel like, yeah, they don't deserve to be here, they don't deserve a seat at the table, they're a fake person. And especially if people realize that they were by, you know, while they were married, let's say, and they have, while they would like to potentially explore their same sex attractions, like, no, I'm happy with my husband. I don't kind of want to open up that can of worms. I'm going to remain monogamous here and be like, yes, you are bisexual, you are 100% bisexual. There's no half bisexual, there's no slight bisexual. This bisexuality is you. 

And one thing I think has been helpful when I describe it is all too often and this is quite sad, like our queer identity is verified or justified by the amount of like discrimination and oppression that we receive. So it's just like, oh, I'm queer because I've been a victim of a hate crime and it's just like. I am absolutely not saying that. Like, a bi, cis woman relationship with a man has the same struggles as a trans woman dating a man or as a gay man dating another man or lesbians dating. That's like I'm very well aware as someone who's bi. Like when I walk down the street holding hands with a woman, I feel significantly safer than when I'm walking down the streets holding hands with a man, where I am looking over my shoulder I am seeing if someone's going. Like I've had people harass me, I've had people slurs at me. Like I am aware that my safety isn't jeopardy. That doesn't make me queer. 

And what I really hope that people who do have privilege in the relationships do is actually use that privilege to become part of the bi community and to support those who are more marginalized within the community. And what I kind of say to the more marginalized people who often don't want to necessarily accept the bi people or feel like, oh, they don't understand our experience and like we actually need their support and help. They're coming from a place of privilege and if we welcome them into this community, they're more likely to use their husband's finance dollars to actually support you. You know what I mean. But like so, but if you can kind of get beyond the fact where it's just like, yes, I'm not saying that we have the same life, I'm not saying that we have the same hardships, but yes, I'm still 100% bisexual and that is my identity and that is my attractions and potentially you're saying this because you want it to also be your community, right, you want to exist in these spaces, you want to feel welcome in these spaces. You want to have other bi and queer friends and you are more than allowed to have that and that is absolute who you are. 

But yeah, especially like it can be tough for bi people, especially bi women, I know sometimes, like lesbians are often very mean to bi women, like there's no other kind of way around that, where you know they're, like there's, I think, for this fear. Of course, there's a sphere that you know, I think often, often, what happens is, you know, like a lesbians have their heart broken by, you know, by women who ends up leaving them for a man who was just, let's say, dabbling with a queer identity and because of that they got their heart broken. They're like okay, all bi women are fake and suck and it's like well, no, you did have one quote unquote fake bi woman who was just dabbling with you and broke your heart and I'm very sorry for that experience. That is very shitty. That doesn't mean every single bi woman is like this, what a myopic and self-centered perspective to have here. 

0:22:59 - Danielle Bezalel

Totally. 

0:23:00 - Zachary Zane

Um. So I'm a little bit rambling here, but I think if there's a way to be like, yes, it is about my attractions, about my community, I deserve to be here and, of course, don't take up too much space from those who are more marginalized and please make sure to give the help and the support that you have, coming from a place of privilege. But as long as you do that, then yes, you deserve to be here. You're 100% by, you're part of this community. 

0:23:24 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, that is helpful to hear and yeah, I think it's so individualized. Everyone has their own experience, their own way in which they see the world, their own influences. But I do think that, like reading your book and again again going to your event and like just being near other people who are like, yeah, I'm bisexual and you kind of being someone who's like, yeah, like as a kid I didn't have any notion of what that could be and what that would feel like if I was that, and I don't want to spoil it for people because I want people to buy your book, but you do delve into that a lot, about struggling with that label because as a buy man, you didn't see that. 

0:24:07 - Zachary Zane

And realizing that I feel like for bi people, we're often like, okay, we're going to live like a dual life where it's like we have our gay life and we have our straight life, and some of us maybe will completely just have a straight life or completely just have a gay life. And one thing I try to explain in the book is like you can actually just have a buy life and that's not 50% gay and not 50% straight, but surrounding yourself with other buy queer inclusive spaces when you're not feeling like, oh, I'm picking a side right now, I'm putting on my straight hat, I'm putting up putting on my gay hat. You can always live just having your hat on in every space, and how welcoming and rewarding that feels. 

0:24:46 - Danielle Bezalel

Totally Okay getting into your book a little bit, because I have a couple questions specifically about the books. I think the glossary in the beginning like I, even as a seasoned sex educator I have a master's of public health from Columbia like I've been around the block with these terms and still I'm, you know, learning I think there's something to be said for these, this language and these definitions kind of shifting and changing over the last like couple years, five, 10 years, and so I think it is really important to kind of keep up on, like the most recent definitions of things so that people can understand other people's experiences and, if they want to engage with that as well, what that might look and feel like. And so I have a couple teaching moments for you right now. Sure, the first one is can you go over the differences that you talk about between bisexual versus pansexual? And then we'll get into the second question. 

0:25:37 - Zachary Zane

Sure, and this question sometimes riles me up a little bit, so I'll try not to get someone who often asks me like, why do you not identify as pan? Because you're attracted to all genders? But and I'll explain a little bit later I identify as bi, but essentially, like the first word we had for this really was bisexuality. But then it seemed like there was a little bit of confusion where people thought the bi in that potentially met like, oh, you're only attracted to men and women, and in that way it was not inclusive of non-binary people or people who exist outside the gender binary. So because of that, they kind of created the word pansexual, and pan means all means, oh, we're attracted to all genders. And then bi people were like, wait a minute, I'm also attracted to all genders. And also sometimes pan people will call bi people transphobic and I'm like that actually makes no sense, because if you say we're attracted to men and women, that means you don't believe that cis, that trans men are men and trans women are women, you're the one that's being transphobic. The argument to be made is that it's non-binary, phobic, not inclusive of non-binary people. But that's also fucking ridiculous because like, and the thing is. You'll never you very rarely hear a non-binary person or trans person saying that bisexuality is transphobic or non-binary phobic, and the reason why is because bi people are the ones dating and fucking them. It's not the hyper masculine straight dude who's dating the non-binary person, it is bi people in large, bi in large right. But so anyway, bi people kind of pushed back being like no. We're also like many of us who are attracted to people of all genders. So then kind of what ended up happening was like bi meant many or all genders. It could be you're attracted to genders that are your own or genders that are not your own. So we kind of push back, being like no. Bi can mean essentially the exact same thing as pan, which means almost pan didn't need to exist anymore, right, because we had this. So now kind of the difference in definitions and how it's grown is essentially bisexual people are attracted to people because of their gender, and then pan people are attracted to people regardless of gender, and so in that regards, I'm definitely bisexual because I'm attracted to masculinity, I'm attracted to femininity, I'm attracted to various body parts. I like dicks and pussy and ass and tits and everything. I'm attracted to absolutely everything and I find it all desirable. It's not a lack of desire, it's all of it. But then kind of the confusion with that is some people identify as both bi and pan and if you identify both then that's kind of at odds because one's saying I'm attracted to people because of gender, the other one's saying I'm attracted to people regardless of gender. So if this sounds confusing it is because it is confusing and that's why there is confusion even among the bi and pan communities. 

One thing I think the important thing to note of all of this is being like we are on the same team. Whenever I see like bi and pan infighting which, for what it's worth, I'm actually seeing significantly less of I feel like you know, five years ago, seven, eight years ago, there was a lot of talk about how bisexuality was exclusionary and pan people coming for bi people and bi people coming for pan people, I think we're all realizing like it's the same fucking shit. You know what I mean. Like yes, there are nuances in our attractions, our attractions can come over time, but like we're not gay, we're not straight, what we're attracted to are all genders. We all are on the same team here and hopefully just giving everyone a little bit of space and fresh air to identify whatever they see fit and like. That's all I'm asking for. In terms of identifying as bi, I extend you a grace in identifying as pan or ambisexual or polysexual or sexually fluid or whatever. It is just respecting how people identify. 

0:29:30 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, and I really like that piece because of gender. I think they're like that. That really resonated for me when I heard you explain this at your event of thinking to myself oh yeah, that really I really like relate to that of feeling like their aspects of masculinity and femininity that specifically attract me, and I'm sure there are people listening who that really like pinpoints they're feeling as well. Yeah, but yeah, I just really enjoyed that. And the second question is how about this distinction between these three terms E and M, an open relationship and polyamorous? 

0:33:25 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So kind of ethical non monogamy or some people prefer consensual non monogamy, or people just say non monogamy all are the same thing is an umbrella term, kind of the same way that queer is to kind of say, a lot of LGBTQ labels, so it's an umbrella term for any type of relationship that is not monogamous here. But so an open relationship just means you're open to sexual partners outside of your primary partner, but you're not looking for love. You don't have a wife and a boyfriend and a girlfriend. You don't have a wife and you're dating other people. You have a wife and maybe you'll have sex with other people, but it is just sex and you have this one primary partner. That's when an open relationship is. 

And then there are various types of open relationships. Underneath that there's don't ask, don't tell there are swingers. There are soft, soft swaps, hard swaps, there's a bunch of other things there. But again, and any type of open relationship you have that primary partner who you love and you love and date and are romantically involved with one person. Then polyamory poly means many, amory means love, means many loves. You're open to dating and having romantic relationships with multiple people so you might have a boyfriend and a husband and a girlfriend and a wife, or you might have a primary partner and secondary partner, and there again there are various forms of polyamory. There is hierarchical polyamory, there's none I can never say hierarchical high non higher. There's kitchen table polyamory, parallel polyamory, solo poly, single poly different from solo poly. There's a bunch of various ways to be poly relationship anarchists. There's a bunch of different ways to be polyamorous. No one is superior to the other, there's just various forms. Whenever works for you and your partners to follow ups. 

0:35:14 - Danielle Bezalel

One you mentioned in the beginning of the interview that right now, everyone in their mother seems to be experimenting with E and M. Why do you think that is and where do you recommend people go? Like read about this to find like minded people to hook up with, like my likes. What are their apps? Are there in person places like what? What's your recommendation for people who want to learn more? 

0:35:38 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So I'll start with the first question, which is why are we seeing an increase? And I think many of us didn't have really great monogamous, like role models, like a lot of us have divorced parents or we have parents who stayed together because they thought that longevity constituted success and because of that, they were just miserable remaining monogamous in this long term relationship and didn't want to break up because they had so much shame and involved doing so, and so because of that, we're like we didn't. No one seems happy here. The people are not enjoying this, like why would I want to do this? And so, as it almost became an option, people were like, oh, I didn't even know this was an option, and I feel like that's kind of like it just now becoming a viable option. The way. That's not and that's what mainstream is doing. 

But I think we've just seen a lot of monogamous relationships frankly not work and when that's the case, we're like OK, we're looking for something different, we're looking for something new. And I think, undoubtedly, even if you've been in a very successful, happy, healthy monogamous relationship, you've even if you haven't cheated and the numbers show that a lot of people fucking cheap even if you haven't cheated. You've definitely thought, fuck, I would love to have sex with other people. You know what I mean. That would be really fucking cool if I could do this, but again it didn't seem like an option. Well, the Sunday you talk to your partner like, actually kind of have sex with other people, you kind of want sex with other people. This actually might make our relationship stronger and we feel less resemble each other and feel more connected and love each other even more. Why not give it a shot? So I think we're just understanding that there were options were didn't have really monogamy modeled for us in such beautiful ways, the way like, yeah, like we have this picture story of how it works in fairy tales, yet that's not what happened with my parents or grandparents or anyone we know In our lives. That's not to say monogamy can't work. I, of course, I do know happily monogamous couples, absolutely, but also you kind of look at them. You're like that's not really me. I also probably think that there's a correlation between we're seeing more and more people identifies queer than ever before and queer people have always been more open to polyamory and open relationships, largely because we were not allowed to get married, so when we were no longer striving to have marriage and the majority of countries around the world we still can't get married, right like when that is the case, we start to create our own alternative models for relationships. We started to experiment with other things Because, yeah, we couldn't strive for marriage. We can strive for monogamy, we can strive to have these legal rights the same way. So we created that, and now that more and more people are identifying as queer and are now almost privy to this open relationship, polyamorous culture that they didn't think or didn't really know existed. So I think that's definitely another element to it, kind of the queerness aspect of it. 

In terms of resources, first and foremost, read my column Navigating Non-monogamy at Cosmopolitan. I think that is one of the best resources out there. There are some polyamory podcasts. Obviously, Dan Savage talks about polyamory and ethical non-monogamy all the time. The Savage Lovecast is a great resource, but they're also like polyamory specific podcasts and, of course, I'm afraid I'm going to like they all have like polyamory, like in the name of it, but I'm getting confused as to what they are In terms of like dating, meeting people. I feel like Field is the big polyamory app and people really like using it, although I've heard people have success with OKCupid. 

If your polyamory or open relationship falls on a more like, I'm looking for kink partners, whether it's, you know, a BDSM type relationship, dom sub relationship, sex slave, whatever it is, fetlife is kind of a good one for that. I feel like there are a lot of, like you know, polyamorous people on there or open relationship people on there who, yeah, but their focus is like okay, I want to have kinky sex with new people. So that's also specifically what you're looking for in your open relationship, which is extremely valid. A lot of times, people open up their relationships because they have wild kinks or whatever it is that their partner doesn't want to do and they want to get this fulfilled elsewhere so they're able to have this kinky relationship with someone else. So that's the best way to do it. But I like that I haven't used Tinder or Hinge kind of in a while, but I also am seeing like I know enough people like who've had three sums through Bumble, you know what I mean. 

So these apps that are like, not even necessarily you don't think of them as being. You know the poly open relationship app? I really think if you just list it on your bio, yes, you're in it. Some people saying annoying stupid things to you block them. You don't need to engage, that's fine. But, like when you like the same thing for bisexuality, when you talk about being bisexual, when you talk about being in an open relationship, all of a sudden you're going to start attracting a lot of people who are bisexual, a lot of people in open relationships. 

0:40:37 - Danielle Bezalel

Very helpful. Thank you for that list and for those explanations. Let's get into that wild sex that you were talking about in your book transition. I would love for you to share a story from your book with our audience, maybe one about which you know anything like super fun, wild, kinky, whatever you want, whatever comes to mind. 

0:40:59 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So I talk about this as the final chapter of the book and so I don't want to give too much away here. Maybe a teaser. A teaser so I threw a party called by slut not to be confused with the book title, boy Slut, but by slut was a party and the way I describe it was for by men and their admirers, because I'd go to obviously like straight sex parties didn't have any queer sex. 

I'd go to gay sex parties and that was just like gay men having sex and I go to queer sex parties and it was like, okay, women hooking up with women and women hooking up with men, but really actually never men hooking up with men. I never saw like a truly bisexual sex party where it's like I wanted to see a trans woman fisting this dude's asshole while he's blowing someone else and I want a place where, like, non binary partners and trans partners can be celebrated to and trans and non binary people identifies by it as significantly higher rate than cis people as well. But like, yeah, I want to see some M M F, some F M, m, m, non binary configuration, some actual bisexual sex, and so that is exactly what happened. I remember I'm like downstairs at one point in like the basement where all the beds are set up, and I think I'm like looking around at a 360 angle, I'm covering my mouth as I'm seeing just like the most bisexual sex configurations, like orgies. Every single where I go, every single where I turn, I was like this is all I've ever wanted. 

I'm so happy and, and the thing is, and we know, when I'm talking about this chapter, it's like, yes, this party was really cool because sexually it was pretty fucking awesome and there's no denying that. But also it was like really, I had a guy come up to me, a couple people come up to be like the space means so much for me. I often feel like I'm either gay or straight and this is the first time where I feel like I am just existing and inhabiting my bisexual self. And how important it is to actually have like by spaces, right, not just gay spaces, not just straight spaces. And again, queer spaces are inclusive but they are slightly different, right, and really illustrating this book, how like, kind of in the ending chapter, I'm like like sex isn't just sex, right, so like this could be easily reduced to like, oh, this was just a fun sex party, but, like, sex influences every aspect of your life. 

You know influences your relationship, obviously, with your romantic partners or casual partners, people having sex with you, but also your mental health, your quality of life, which affects how you are at work, which affects how you feel about yourself, how you are with your family. You know it affects everything and it's the importance of having a good sex life and the importance of having a strong bisexual queer community where you feel welcomed and embraced, like it's not just about the sex, it's about everything that sex influences and touches, which is everything. 

0:43:43 - Danielle Bezalel

Totally. I can really relate with that idea because recently I did a magic wand experiment, masturbation experiment. Magic wand is one of our sponsors here and pretty much for like 21 days I did this experiment, tracking 27 variables. 

For the first seven days it was like, oh wow, abstinence week. For the next seven days, I was masturbating every day. For the next seven days it was regular sexual activity and I tracked all of these things my horniness graph, my confidence, my all of these amazing things and the conclusion that I came to is that sexual pleasure is one very important piece of the pie that makes up my happiness as an individual, and I think that can be extrapolated to sex with my partner, sex with my sex Exactly. 

Yeah, which was really a really cool thing. I'll send you the data after, if you want to take a look at it Please. 

0:44:38 - Zachary Zane

Oh my God, I'm ready to come again too. I hope there's no TMI. I got a vasectomy a week ago. Oh, wow and so how was that? 

0:44:45 - Danielle Bezalel

It's healing fine. 

0:44:46 - Zachary Zane

Healing. Fine, it's a pretty minimal procedure for the most part, and I just can't come for a week. And I should probably have, probably have, like I can have like slow, very slow gentle sex for a little bit, but I'm okay. 

0:45:00 - Danielle Bezalel

I might just like to wait. 

0:45:02 - Zachary Zane

Is that not my style? So I'm just going to jerk off so I can finally jerk off tomorrow, which I'm very excited for. 

0:45:08 - Danielle Bezalel

So anyway I feel like this. 

0:45:10 - Zachary Zane

This is the longest I feel like I've gone without coming, since I was like 14. 

0:45:16 - Danielle Bezalel

So it's only been like that, but it has been a week. 

0:45:20 - Zachary Zane

It is a week. I got it last. What do you say? Tuesday? I got it on Wednesday, so it's been six days. So I will tomorrow. I just want to make sure no bruising, no scabs, open up whatever it is, and back to my horny, disgusting self. 

0:45:34 - Danielle Bezalel

Can you talk a little bit about why you wanted to do that and what the actual process was like? 

0:45:40 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So I want to do it for a few reasons. Number one I have partners who are just like, not on birth control and it's because it messes with their body or for any other reason. Just so you know, they're not on birth control and we want to have condoms with sex. And also it's like I play a little fast and loose. My condom use is not notoriously not the best right. 

So, like I've had some close calls and I'm a reddit partner we recently broke up but we're actually on good terms where she was not on birth control and she was like I'm like, if you got pregnant, would you get an abortion? And she goes, I would not. And I'm like, oh really. And she was like it's not that she's against abortions, it was that she had. She took the abortion pill, like and I've consent to share the story because I shared it in something recently like 10 years ago, and she started hemorrhaging out so badly she had to go to the ER and she would have died. Oh wow. And she's like I'm 32. I want to have a kid at some point. Your genes are not bad. 

0:46:36 - Danielle Bezalel

I'll take it. 

0:46:37 - Zachary Zane

I'll take it and also, like I don't know if my body can handle this anymore. 

0:46:41 - Danielle Bezalel

You know, I really don't want to do this. I've never heard of a story like that. That's very rare, I assume, but really scary. 

0:46:48 - Zachary Zane

Yeah. And so she was like no, I don't want to do this. And like, okay, we really need to wear condoms and not get drunk and be like, oh, it's fine, we'll use the pullout method. It's like Jesus, zach, I know better than this, I know, come on, zach. So just yeah, just having and just a little bit of safety. You know, condoms break. 

I have partners who you know they're very good about taking their birth control. Sometimes they forget whatever it is and I just kind of didn't want the onus to be on my partner all the time. It's just like, okay, I feel safe, I can take responsibility, I know we are good and I'm sure I don't want kids. But I froze sperm just in case. I really don't think this is in the cards for me, but like, just in case, I did freeze my sperm. But yeah, that way I can kind of just have some sexual autonomy, yeah, the onus not being on my partners, and I can just feel more comfortable and safe and not have to worry about it Because obviously worrying about pregnancy scares is very scary for everyone involved. 

0:47:51 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, it sucks, and do you feel, like, having gone through it, that we should be talking about it as a more viable option for birth control? 

0:48:01 - Zachary Zane

It is wild that it really is not like, first of all, it's free through insurance, like getting reverse for sex me, I think that's like $15,000 or something quite expensive. So like you can't do that or you can do that. 

And it's not 100% it's expensive, but like, considering like it's a pretty minimal procedure all things considered. They're very few potential side effects from it, it is very safe, and considering just like the side effects that go along with birth control, if you know you don't want kids, this is an absolutely great option. If you think you might want kids, then no, this is not a great option. You know what I mean. Like then you should absolutely keep it. But if you know you don't want to have kids, it makes your life easier. It makes your partner's life easier. 

We're in the era of Roe vs Wade being overturned and just being like any fucking help we can have to women right now. Like, yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's not put yourself in a situation where you can't, where your partner can't get an abortion when she needs one you know what I mean Like or when she needs one and wants one, whatever it is. So like the fact that it's like it really should be spoken about significantly more and I think it is such a great and viable option If you know you don't want kids, or if you've already had kids and you don't want more, yeah. 

0:49:14 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, I feel like women that I speak with, at least anecdotally, are kind of like being more open about the fact that birth control pills, or whatever other form of birth control they're on, has given them significantly challenging side effects. 

0:49:28 - Zachary Zane

I've heard like IUDs can cause so much pain, can cause spotting and shifting, and just the amount of pain it takes to get it, the amount of pain it takes to get it removed, like it's. I think so many men don't understand what we are demanding of women and like the actual pain and stress and emotional mood swings and everything that we're putting on women. But it's like okay, we actually can. It takes two to tangle, right, you're having sex with one. You're the one coming. Like you're equally responsible, you can equally pull your weight in the situation and it is really not that hard for men. Yeah, totally Like getting this. I mean, again, it's annoying that I can't come and I haven't been able to work out. I'm still swelling, but like two weeks, it'll take me two weeks and I'll be ready fucking go for the rest of my fucking life. Obviously you can't come. You have to wait like a couple months. I think you have to come like 30 times and then they double check and make sure that it was successful. 

0:50:22 - Danielle Bezalel

Oh wow, the numbers don't immediately, That'll take me one week. 

0:50:26 - Zachary Zane

Yeah, yeah, literally like coming back in two months. I'm like 45 minutes, I will be here in 45 fucking minutes and be fine. But like so, just make sure. Obviously, like it is, it takes longer to get a second than you realize. You at least in the state of New York, I had to go in to sign paperwork. They make you wait a month. You have between a month and six months and I'm like it is easier for me to buy a gun and shoot my dick off, then get a fucking vasectomy Is what I said to the doctor, and you just started laughing and like what ended up happening was I was ended up traveling during that first five months. 

The six month experience didn't have enough time. So then I missed the window by like a month. I had to go in, sign again, wait another month and this time I'm like all right, we're doing it like I'm not signing this and doing this shit again, and so like the actual process of doing it and then having to wait it's not going to be. It is going to take a little bit of time here. So you know, start sooner than later if it's something you're interested in. 

0:51:20 - Danielle Bezalel

Great, really glad that we made time for that today. 

0:51:22 - Zachary Zane

I didn't think that I was gonna come up and I'm yeah excited to hear how that goes for you. 

0:51:25 - Danielle Bezalel

Hopefully well. 

0:51:26 - Zachary Zane

I mean I'm healing fine. You know what I mean, so it should be great, yeah. 

0:51:29 - Danielle Bezalel

I'm sure it'll be an excellent choice for you and I'm really glad that you did that. Annoying that they had to make you wait, but you will come in no time. I will make up for lost time. 

0:51:40 - Zachary Zane

Yeah exactly. 

0:51:41 - Danielle Bezalel

We have a couple of questions left. Thank you again so much for being on. This has been such a great interview, of course, and I want to get back to your book for a second. Just like personally, I'm wondering if there's been a really really surprising part of like putting this book out into the world and if there's something really, really exciting that you didn't expect has been happening for you. 

0:52:02 - Zachary Zane

Oh my God, I had so much anxiety putting this book out in the world. I am a highly anxious person with OCD and Jewish neuroses, but so I think one of the best things is I get a thank you note pretty much daily at this point since the book has come out. So it came out May 9th, we're on July 18th, so it's been two and a half months, and daily I'm getting a message about how this book has changed your life, and in positive ways. This person's like this has been so much better for me than the last year of therapy. And I go, you need to get better therapy, right, and she just started laughing. I'm like, no, I really appreciate it. Thank you. So, but I think what was cool was seeing what people resonated with. It wasn't just one chapter, it wasn't just one theme, and each chapter is slightly different. In the way that I do and I am talking about different themes and seeing, like, what resonated with people, and it were things that I'm like oh, that was your takeaway from that. Oh, this small thing spoke to you in a way that I didn't even think that was going to have such a large impact. So I think it's very cool seeing the various elements of the book that actually speak to people, what resonates with people and what their favorite part is and what their takeaway from it is, and people being like Zach I came out as bisexual because of you. 

I came out as trans because of you. I've embraced being polyamorous. Because of you, I'm no longer embarrassed in my kinks. I feel so much more confident sexually. I feel like I can discuss what I want. I'm now on dating apps. You've helped me so much and like fuck, that feels good, because I get a lot of hatred for what I do. 

A lot of people hate the book. Of course, this is a book that people are going to hate. The book is called Boy Slut. Obviously, not everyone is going to love it. People are going to hate it for the title alone. So I did this, though, because I want to help the queer community. I want to help the bi community, the poly, the kinky community, and when I receive these notes, I'm like Okay, I know I've been anxious, I know I dealt with a lot of hatred and vitriol and I continue to receive this. But no, I did this. I did the right thing. I'm happy I did this. This is something good I put out in the world that's going to be helping people and that just makes me really, really happy when I'm somewhat feeling overwhelmed by the negativity that I also receive. 

0:54:16 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, that's it right. Like that's what we're all seeking in this life is to feel like we're having a positive impact on somebody and you. The fact that you're hearing from people like you changes my life and I'm like another addition to that being like you. Like you know, you had a big influence on the way in which my thoughts about myself crystallized and like you'll always be a part of that story for me, which is really special and really unique and very cool. But, yeah, I'm very appreciative. I know a lot of other people are. I'm very excited to finish your book and to finish all of the kinky sex scenes that I haven't quite gotten to yet. Yeah, but I'm wondering if you can share again where listeners can find and follow you, read your work, and where they can buy your book. 

0:54:58 - Zachary Zane

Sure. So, honestly, instagram is great. I'm Zachary Zane underscore there. I just got off Twitter a couple months ago, which has been good for my mental health, so I think I'm going to stay off Twitter. Stay off threads. Do that. My website, zachary Zanecom. 

I have a digital zine called, also called Boy Slut, which is either great branding or very confusing, and that's on Substack, and I publish nonfiction erotica, so real sex stories that happen to me and other writers contribute to. It is raunchy, it is explicit, it is over the top, it is queer and fun as fuck. I highly recommend subscribing and then you can buy my book anywhere books are sold. So the book is called Boy Slut one word because actually if we did it as two words, we would have gotten dinged on Amazon because Slut registers as a bad word. So I mean, buying it from your local bookstores is always good but of course you can also buy it on Amazon too. It exists there and I also did an audible book where I'm the one that read it, so you can also listen to me. If you enjoy my very gay voice, then please, please, enjoy that as well. But, yeah, like, please, pick up a copy. And if you could buy five to 10,000 copies for all of your friends as well. I'd really really appreciate it. 

0:56:08 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, maybe 20, you know, depending on your budget. Thank you so much for being on. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. 

0:56:16 - Zachary Zane

Thank you for having me on. This was a lot of fun.