"Every Body" with Intersex Film Star, Activist, and Scholar
SEAN SAIFA WALL
0:05:09 - Sean Saifa Wall
Hey, what's up, Danielle?
0:05:10 - Danielle Bezalel
I'm so happy to see you and happy to chat with you today.
0:05:14 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, thank you for the invite. Love chatting on the podcast. You know what I'm saying.
0:05:18 - Danielle Bezalel
Listen, this is your second time around. I feel like we have some rapport. We know each other a little better this time. We've been DMing on Instagram about this thing for a little while, trying to figure it out, because I wanted you on this episode for the last episode of this freaking season.
0:05:37 - Sean Saifa Wall
Men love that. Yeah, I feel so honored, I feel so honored.
0:05:40 - Danielle Bezalel
Good, I'm glad, I'm really glad. Well, I'm the one that's really honored because, as I said before we started this interview, I'm chatting with a film star today, and that's you oh my God, that's hilarious. Among a lot of other talents that you have, you now have a film star on your resume. Oh, wow, yeah, I'm thrilled to be the person to get to talk to you about that, because your movie recently came out, everybody, which we're going to talk about.
Yeah, I wish it was my movie, actually Julie Cohen's movie, right, but you're in it, so you get to be like oh, this movie that I'm in, which is like that's got to be a crazy sentence for you to say right.
0:06:20 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, I mean it's wild, I mean life, just really be life out here.
0:06:27 - Danielle Bezalel
You just really don't know.
0:06:30 - Sean Saifa Wall
Life, be life in. It's just like you really don't know what would happen, so Right yeah. It's kind of wild.
0:06:37 - Danielle Bezalel
I can't wait to really dig deep into that, into your feelings about that. But again, welcome back to the podcast. You have been on this podcast before with Hans Lindahl and Pidgeon Pagonis for our Intersex episode about like three plus years ago, which is really crazy. That's been that long.
0:06:59 - Sean Saifa Wall
Internet time. That's like 10 years ago.
0:07:02 - Danielle Bezalel
Right, that was like a peak beginning pandemic basically. And I remember being home at my mom and stepdad's house in Napa with my partner being like what the fuck is going?
I don't know we're just going to kind of go with this, but I'm so excited that I get to have you back on and, for folks who haven't heard that episode, go back and listen. We actually recently this season again had Pigeon back on and we had a great conversation with them, so I'm so excited for you know. If you listen or haven't heard that episode, listen to that also. But for folks who haven't listened to that Intersex episode before, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? Tell us about your work as an intersex activist and scholar, which I really loved reading on your website.
0:07:55 - Sean Saifa Wall
Hey everyone in sex with DB land. You know my name is Sancai for wall. Thank you for the very gracious, illustrious introduction. Man, I am an intersex activist and scholar and researcher, so I've been doing research for as long as I've been doing intersex activism. I think I've been doing research probably more consistently than I've been doing intersex activism, and both have been since like 2004, 2005. So that's a long time.
0:08:33 - Danielle Bezalel
Going on 20 years.
0:08:34 - Sean Saifa Wall
Almost in these streets. You know what I'm saying: Trying to spread a good word, trying to get the doctors to make you know, trying to get them to do and make different decisions. But yeah, I think, like the last few years of my life, I accepted a PhD fellowship as a Marie Curie fellow at the University of Huddersfield. So I've been here working on my project which is looking at sort of like how intersex has been erased from policy sectors in Ireland and in England. So yeah, that's been taking up my time and energy and brain space.
0:09:17 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, what has it been like? Is this your first time living in the UK?
0:09:22 - Sean Saifa Wall
Oh yes.
0:09:23 - Danielle Bezalel
How has that been?
0:09:26 - Sean Saifa Wall
Well, you know it's funny, right? Because everyone thinks, you know, whenever folks talk to me, you know they're like they find out that I'm living in England. They're like, oh my God, how's London? I'm like, okay, first of all England.
You know, I'm not going to go up for England like that, but I'm just like there's so much more to you know England than just London right Right right, and I think I live up north in Manchester, which is, like you know, this sort of former industrial city that's in the north and there's a big difference between the north and the south right, sort of like in the US, where there's a difference between the American south and the north and the Midwest and the West coast, you know. So, yeah, I think it's been really interesting sort of like living here and working here and it's like, I say, we all speak in English but we are not the same.
0:10:23 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I mean, imagine, sometimes you're like I'm so sorry, I really can't understand. You like very thick accents.
0:10:29 - Sean Saifa Wall
Well, you know, I think I've actually gotten used to the accents.
0:10:33 - Danielle Bezalel
Oh, you have Okay good.
0:10:35 - Sean Saifa Wall
But then I went to this town, maybe it's a small city called Todd Merton and like literally them, people could not understand me.
0:10:45 - Danielle Bezalel
Oh, they can't understand you.
0:10:47 - Sean Saifa Wall
They couldn't. They could not understand me, literally. I was with a homie and I was buying something and the woman was like what is he saying? What is he saying?
0:10:56 - Danielle Bezalel
And I'm just like ma'am ma'am, please, I'm speaking very clearly.
0:11:02 - Sean Saifa Wall
Right, I'm speaking English, but okay, turn up, you know.
0:11:08 - Danielle Bezalel
It's like an interesting, weird culture shock, I imagine, like even though you're, like, we're technically speaking the same language, but your life is very different from my life.
0:11:20 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, culturally it's just. I mean, England is different, right, it's a different country, it's a different culture, it's a different context. So I think it's been. You know, I feel like these last two, almost three years I feel like I've really been in the wild, you know.
0:11:37 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, yeah, what an experience. I'm sure you'll look back on it kind of like oh my God, I can't believe I did that. That was a wild, like just truly wild thing that I did.
0:11:50 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, I probably will say that I'll probably be like I did one of the hardest things in my motherfucking life. Do not recommend, right? I mean, you know people should get an education. Love that for people, love that for me. But, I'm just like who. This is one of the hardest things that I've done in my life today.
0:12:08 - Danielle Bezalel
Totally yeah. I can't wait to hear more about your research and your findings. I know you mentioned working on your dissertation, so how much time, like what do we get here? How much time do we have left, Like what does the end of this thing look like? Talk to me about PhD land.
0:12:27 - Sean Saifa Wall
Oh Lord, you know, to anybody out there who's doing a PhD, they're like mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I mean, you know, one thing I've realized is like this is like one of you know, I think it's like it's a hazing process, right, and the thing is like no one tells you how to do it, but they expect you to do it, right, there's not a lot of structure, there's not a lot of guidance. Then you attempt to do it and you do it wrong, and they're like that's wrong and I'm like huh, what, what? I've never written a PhD in my life.
0:13:02 - Danielle Bezalel
Right.
0:13:03 - Sean Saifa Wall
I think it's like, or a dissertation, rather. So yeah, I think it's emotionally, like isolating. I think this can be physically isolating at times and, you know, I think most days I'm just sitting with myself like battling out on the page. You know, like, really, I think it has been like a really grueling process because it's just me versus me, right, it's not me competing with anyone else, it's like literally me with my thoughts, with my feelings, with my emotions. It's not even so much the research as it's like wow, this process is like a really intense process.
0:13:50 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, and I also like I think this just zooming out for a second because I have my masters of public health and so like, oh, yes, love an. Mph Got an MPH.
0:13:59 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yes.
0:14:00 - Danielle Bezalel
I'm a sexual and reproductive health and I think, like, what a lot of PhD folks are missing is what you are an expert at, which is activism and like what. Now, and I think it's so important that you have three major qualities that make this a really big deal. One oh look at you.
Thank you, let me explain. I'm in presentation mode now, okay. So what is your lived experience as an intersex person, right Two, is your years and years of professional activism and being able to connect with people and really like to understand how to present information and how to move people and how to make people care about things. And three, is this academic background? Like? You have the trifecta of being a really powerful, like person who, like people, can look up to and learn from, and I think it's really the marriage of those things are like, really spectacular and really different from most other people I feel like. Who does work like this? Does that happen? Do you feel like that as well?
0:15:10 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yo, it just makes me feel a little tingly. Marriage, yeah, all these things coming together, trifecta, wow, you know Polly within myself.
0:15:22 - Danielle Bezalel
You know what I'm saying? Right, right, right.
0:15:27 - Sean Saifa Wall
I always try to be accessible, right Cause I think one thing I've realized is, you know, as part of being part of the academy during this time, with so many academics are so jaded Right, it's just kind of like for me, you know, I'm a part of the academy doing this PhD, but I'm not an academic, right, like I'm really committed to sort of being free and, like you know, and it's just kind of like I think I see more of my role as sort of like being more of like a strategist, right, like sort of leaning into that, because, like, I think, the direct action piece as far as the intersex movement goes, I think you know, as it should be right, like people are like coming into awareness of being intersex.
People like living their best lives, you know, having relationships, going to school, going to therapy, getting healing. You know, some people are writing books, some people are, like you know, excelling in the arts. You know, and I think for me that's what intersex liberation is, that people don't necessarily have to be activists, right, they can actually just be themselves and that's enough. Right, totally. And so for me, I think, especially as I'm getting older, right Cause, you know, don't let the taste smooth. Fool you, I'm in my mid forties.
0:16:59 - Danielle Bezalel
And you look very good, Very good. Well, you know, you know, the good black don't crack you know, good black don't crack.
0:17:07 - Sean Saifa Wall
But I do think it's just like for me, it's like, as I think about, like legacy, it's just like, well, how can I support the younger people who are coming after me, who are taking up the mantle, cause I mean, that's what we should be doing, right, like if you've had some time in and you got some experience and you got some sense, then you like okay, how can I support the younger generation, right?
0:17:36 - Danielle Bezalel
It's so interesting, Like Pigeon and I had like really similar themes come up, like very, very similar, of Pigeon being like actually don't really want to tell my story anymore Like I'm ready to kind of like move on from that and talk about intersex joy and also empower younger generations to like do this work like really really similar and I think that's only something that you realize, or like come to the conclusion of with age and like with your time, of like doing this for a certain amount of time and being like okay, like I have a different feeling in my body and mind now and I'm ready to like like she literally said like pass the baton like, literally like to you know, part of it was like passing the baton like to themselves, but also it was kind of like how do we, how do we really talk about like activism, burnout and like figure out how to encourage younger generations to like know how this work is feeling and you can talk about it until you're blue in the face, but until people really experience it and live it, it's really hard to explain, but it just find an interesting, really similar themes are coming up.
0:18:47 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, totally. I mean, the thing is like I think that's being responsible, right, like I think that's being responsible and I think that's being honest. And you know, it's just kind of like people would tell me when I was younger. Older people would be like youth is wasted on a young and I never understood that, right, and of course it sounds probably ages as fuck, you know. But I think there is something in that where it's just kind of like, yeah, I think as you get older, you step into a different role, right, you have different priorities, no-transcript, and I feel like, as I'm sort of on a crest or on a cusp of 45, it's just like, oh, I just have a different view of things than I did even five years ago. So I'm just really kind of settling into that. So I'm liking this aging thing, you know what I'm saying.
0:19:45 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I mean I think one of my really close friends keeps bringing it up and I just really feel it of like, as you get older, you just give less of a fuck, Like in terms of facts. You know what I mean. Not necessarily about like things that you really really are passionate about, but just like okay, like it's not as you know, like I don't really want to engage with that, I don't care as much as I used to, and it's healthy for you to kind of like reclaim, like what makes you happy and like how to really like center yourself and like you care less about what other people think of you. I think that's like the crux of that, which is really good to like, hear and feel Totally.
0:20:34 - Sean Saifa Wall
I mean, I was thinking about it. I think about it a lot because, you know, I think, when I was like 30, 35, you know, it would just sound cool to be like I don't give a fuck, I don't give a fuck. It just sounded cool, right. But like I think now it's just like I actually don't give a fuck, but it's not in a way that's like hostile or like a fuck you to the world. It's literally like how do I conserve my energy, right? How do I conserve my resources? How do I invest in my own capacity? Right? And so then it's not even about other people. What they do or don't do is just like well, how can I make better decisions for myself?
0:21:15 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I think, transitioning a little bit too.
0:21:18 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, totally.
0:21:20 - Danielle Bezalel
Not your film, but the film that you're in.
0:21:23 - Sean Saifa Wall
I'm still going to call it your film. You know, love that, love that. Love that you know. It's Julie Cohen's film. It's called a repertoire.
0:21:31 - Danielle Bezalel
Okay, you're right. You're right, let's give Julie Cohen some credit, because it is Julie's film, but it's a film that you are starring in with other people, right? Okay, so let's get into it. It's called Every Body, with two words, every Body, and it has a 97% on round tomatoes. Okay, let's really talk that up. And I really see why. I watched this film. I loved it. I thought it was very touching and beautiful and authentic and even as like an MPH who has studied this stuff and like really, really, I'm already invested, right, like I'm bought into this cause already, I felt like it leveled up for me and I'm more interested, more like I was very attached to your three stories and felt like very much like wow, this is such a wonderful depiction of these three people and it felt really cool that I was like I know him, I know Saipa.
0:22:29 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yo, yo, yo, I was on the show, yeah, yeah.
0:22:33 - Danielle Bezalel
You were on my TV big time, so I love this film. I thought it was fantastic. It was touching, it was beautiful. It was wonderful. I was, like, I know, a celebrity. This is the best ever.
0:22:45 - Sean Saifa Wall
That's hilarious.
0:22:48 - Danielle Bezalel
And I wonder if you can tell the listeners who don't know about everybody. Why don't you share what it's about?
0:22:56 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, so Everybody is a Film by Julie Cohen. She has made such films like My Name is Paulie Murray and RBG, and I would say Everybody is a Film that follows three intersex people, including myself River Gallo who's Gallo? Who's a filmmaker, Alicia Rothweigel, who works in politics and does a whole bunch of stuff, has a book coming out recently or coming out soon, and then myself, longtime activist and researcher. So I think it's a really profound film because I think it touches on different aspects of our lives. That includes our experiences with physicians, our relationships with our families, these points of shame and secrecy, but also really shows how we transform these really sort of like I guess in some ways negative but more so isolating experiences to sort of like bloom. So, yeah, I think it really was.
You know, when I was in New York City for the Tribeca film screening, I saw the editor. The editor is like this quirky guy. He's so cool, he's really kind of so rad, you know, really just brilliant, you know, and I was just like, wow, you know, you really did an amazing job with editing, because I feel like you know everybody 's film. I feel like I can almost do like a mic drop in a way, because I feel like he really just sort of captured who I am on film, like what I am, what I'm about, right, like for me it's always been about the work, it's always been about people getting free, right and really sort of highlighting and sort of spotlighting the treatment of intersex folks. And so, yeah, I feel like, when I think about my own legacy, like I feel like everybody just feels almost like the cement, you know, sort of like this is what Saifa did. You know he's been doing this work for a long time. This is what he did. He showed out, he did the damn thing. Boom, you know.
0:25:41 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, totally. It also must just feel like this interesting chapter. That's like you've been doing that for a long time, you know. I don't know how long filming took, I assume like months, over a year.
0:25:55 - Sean Saifa Wall
Oh, yeah, okay, over a year, yeah, totally.
0:26:00 - Danielle Bezalel
Like whoa, that's all a really long time and you can't really explain it to people until they just see it and they just understand. And you're right, like an editor really brings that all together. It's a masterful skill and it's really really such an important piece of being able to see the final thing that comes out. Did you know River and Alicia well or at all, before the film.
0:26:28 - Sean Saifa Wall
I knew them and I hung out with River once in LA and I've shared space with Alicia a couple times, but I didn't really know them. So I think through the process of the film I got to know them a lot more, you know. I think it was cool.
0:26:51 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, was there anything that was kind of surprising to you about you know you've shared your story hundreds of times at this point right. I mean it's like etched in your brain when it comes to your activism and sharing and being in front of a crowd and you know, speaking in front of senators and you're in. You know you do like a lot with this story and I wonder if it felt any different in front of a camera or if you got to share another piece of you in this film that maybe you hadn't previously or, yeah, just anything else that came up for you there.
0:27:27 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, I think for me what felt really different was sort of like bringing in pictures of, like, my mom, pictures of my family, like that felt different, you know, because I think I always talk about my family whenever I talk about my story, but I think it's another thing to see them. You know, I remember after the Tribeca screening there was like a Q&A. There was a short Q&A session and that kind of almost broke down, sort of thinking about like you know, Alicia's mom was in the crowd, river's mom was in the crowd and my mom is dead you know,
So I think I was really sort of tapped into that grief. But I also think what was interesting for me in watching the film? I think it showed more dimensions to who I am. You know that I'm interested in healing, right like that. I'm interested in different things, like outside activism. Like activism is important and it's not my life. Right, it's a big part of my life but it's not my life. So I think it was, I think you know as much as a film can do in 90 plus minutes and in a, you know, almost three dimensional way. I think the film did a good job of just showing that.
0:28:57 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I really loved the little moments where, like, alicia was kind of filmed like swiping on a dating app and you were kind of like romance is no problem for me and like, and there's kind of like this, like light moment, and I feel like that is what's missing in a lot of activist stories. And you know, again, like me and Pigeon talked about this too, and you're alluding to this which is like this is only a piece of what makes me whole, and you won't understand really what makes me whole unless you get the opportunity to hear, like, what I laugh about and who I date and what that feels like, and you know what my friends are like, like there's so many other pieces that make up a full life and I think a documentary can do a really good job of like attempting to show as many of those pieces as they can.
0:29:49 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, totally, totally, I think it really. Yeah, I think it really it showed more, showed more sides, because I think I'm also like a private person too, like I'm not, you know, I'm not, I don't be in these streets like that you know, like people who know me, know how I move and I just be, like you know, doing my thing.
So I think it's. I think, even though this was a really public thing, like a public film that's just going to live in the archive forever, I think it still felt really intimate and in some ways felt private, you know, because it's just kind of like it's not one of those films like Barbie or oppenheimer right, where everyone's like, whoa, I gotta see the film. So, like people you know they're going to see it on streaming or they're going to kind of stumble upon it in some way if they want to learn about intersex issues. So I feel like it almost sort of creates this sort of like private, sort of intimate dialogue with just a viewer.
0:31:00 - Danielle Bezalel
Right.
0:31:00 - Sean Saifa Wall
And just you know, like yeah, because I feel like the people who have hit me up or just like they're like oh, I saw the film, it was really amazing, Like, but it hasn't been weird, it hasn't been like weirdos or like. You know, I'm here for the weird you know, but yeah, I think it's been really chill and I just hope that it just reaches whoever it needs to reach and speaks to whoever needs to speak to.
0:31:33 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, in terms of the title, I kind of at first also was like oh, I wonder what is behind the idea of wanting this title to be this way, this every space body. I think the conclusion that I came to was that, yes, it is maybe a little general, but I do think in order to reach people who we really need to be reaching about these topics, it needs to be pretty broad and not too divisive. Is that part of the reason why the title has grown on you? Or talk to me about when you said oh, I wasn't really a fan of it, but now maybe I'm okay with it. What went through your head about it?
0:34:54 - Sean Saifa Wall
I think for me it's like, well, I mean, I think what the reason why it grew on me was because, you know, everyone who is a human has a body, right, and the thing is is like the way I sort of think and speak about intersex issues now is just like you know, intersex is not something that just resides over there somewhere, right, and I think we like to think about intersex as something like oh, I can't be intersex because intersex is so narrowly defined.
And I've been really sort of like seeing more recently, just like everyone has hormones, everyone has genitals, everyone has reproductive organs, like we don't know who's intersex and who's not, right, and I think we've situated for so long, and I feel like conservatives are really in just well, they're maniacal. But I do feel like, you know, there's this effort to really sort of re-institute like male and female as like these polar opposites, right, but like I have always contended that like human bodies are like flowers, right, because, you know, as a sex educator, you know, listen, you sleep with more than one person. Let me tell you, it goes from mild to wild out here. You know what I'm saying, you know. And it's just like there's just so much variation in our bodies. So how can we really quantify like intersex variations? But I think often what happens is that if at birth you know a child is not, you know, does not look how a child is supposed to look, and it's so arbitrary and it's so biased, then those children are subject to harm and that's whack right.
And so for me, you know, I just hope. You know, sometimes I have hope for humans. Sometimes I don't right, but I do hope that other species can really sort of be like we're just. You know, we have these parts, we have these desires. We act on these desires with our parts, and that's what it is right, because I think you know, when we put a gender on something, who does that serve? What is it about? You know what I'm saying. What are we trying to do? What are we trying to accomplish? You know? So you know, for me, I just kind of like to listen, like yeah, I just I'm just like how come? I think now, for me, part of the way I talk about it now is just like how can we just Talk about just bodies, right, that we have these bodies with these parts and we do things with these parts?
or don't do things with these parts. I'm saying it's like yeah, that makes sense.
0:37:53 - Danielle Bezalel
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I do like the idea of really zooming out and thinking through the idea that you know, okay, there are people out there who don't agree with the idea that gender is not whatever. There there is a man and there's what, a woman, what, whatever kind of like Traditional norms that they're kind of being indoctrinated into in their own media and their own messaging and their own family and their own algorithm, like we're all kind of in we're all in it, right with whatever, whatever line we're, like, you know, getting shit from like we're all Out recipients of that messaging.
Whatever the messaging is and the fact of the matter is, it's like there's no arguing about the fact that everyone has bodies and the fact that 1.7 to 2 plus percent of people are born Intersex and that there's just no ability to be like them. Well, no, that's not true, because, like, actually, it just is like there's no need to, you know, pretend like there's something different or we're wrong about that.
0:38:58 - Sean Saifa Wall
Right, but my whole thing is this like why do we have to shortchange ourselves? Right, it's just 1.7 to 2% of the population. That's so arbitrary and weird. It's right, because you know when we're talking about again, when we're talking about the variation in bodies right.
How can we put a number on that, right, you know where do we draw those lines, hmm, you know, and I just feel like in this sort of like really Science, almost pseudoscience, kind of junk science ways is sort of like, well, let's put a number on it because people respect numbers, right. But the thing is, like, you know, I'm a hoe, so I have seen a lot of bodies, right, and this is like Intersex. You know, when we, when we zoom out and when we actually Look at like when we break down, that we're talking about reproductive organs, genitals, hormones and chromosomes. That includes so many people.
Hmm you know, and so for me it's just like how do we have those more expansive conversations, right, right?
0:40:12 - Danielle Bezalel
Let's not pigeonhole.
0:40:14 - Sean Saifa Wall
Totally, you know yeah this is like let's respect Okay, let's respect the numbers. But then you know I remember a while back, you know I was having Because I always am like PCOS people with policies to go variant syndrome. You have a home here, you know right. And so if we include people with PCOS in this definition of intersex, then that brings the number to over 5%.
0:40:43 - Danielle Bezalel
That's interesting, right.
0:40:45 - Sean Saifa Wall
And so you know again, like how can we really Quantified bodies?
0:40:50 - Danielle Bezalel
we can't right, like it's too. We're trying to make it too neat of a box and like it's just it's. We're growing outside of the garden Like it doesn't make sense.
0:41:01 - Sean Saifa Wall
Listen. You know what I'm saying.
0:41:04 - Danielle Bezalel
I hear what you're saying, yeah, I do hear. I appreciate the pushback on the number because I do think for me, as Someone who talks to people who know, who know nothing about intersex, I think I I stick to that number to be like, oh, when that's the same number was redheads and you don't you know a redhead in your life. Like we have all, we all, we all have our script. But I do think I do think it's helpful to push beyond that and just be like, okay, like is, is that really serving us? Like the conversation really needs to go beyond that.
0:41:35 - Sean Saifa Wall
Totally. We, you know, everyone is implicated in this. Yeah, right, like, because I, you know, I've been talking to a couple of like Academics lately who work at universities, work with the Gen Z crowd, work with the youth, you know the youth.
0:41:51 - Danielle Bezalel
And we've got another thing coming.
0:41:54 - Sean Saifa Wall
Listen, you know, and both of them said that the young people that they work with don't identify as male or female.
0:42:03 - Danielle Bezalel
Mm-hmm.
0:42:04 - Sean Saifa Wall
Right a lot of it is gender.
0:42:05 - Danielle Bezalel
Non-binary third gender. Oh my god, yeah you know.
0:42:10 - Sean Saifa Wall
And so it's just like that again. Like you know, if we go according to the Kinsey model, 10% of the human population is gay or lesbian. Right, yeah, right. Forget about the bisexuals, they're on their own right. But the thing about it is it's just like again. Like, especially in these times. Like how can we quantify Sexuality? How can we quantify gender? We can't right. And that's where I give props to the younger generation who's just like breaking that fucking mold and being like you know, we can actually do better.
0:42:45 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, it's if we're, if we're, we're going down this track. I have. I have a response to that that I find really interesting Because I have two thoughts about it. One I genuinely think that, like in 40 years, we're not going to be having as many of these conversations and people are just gonna exist, like with a million you know exactly who they are and like whatever label they want, and many people are gonna say fuck the labels, that's so, that's so 40 years ago, like I'm just doing whatever.
0:43:12 - Sean Saifa Wall
I want to.
0:43:13 - Danielle Bezalel
And I fully support that and I love that. At the same time, I do wonder specifically we're talking about race for a second specifically, I think, for white people and Erica Hart talks a lot about this, I think but I think specifically for white people and specifically For young white people, and this is coming from my own experience like teaching middle school within the past couple years.
Right, right white young people Feel, I generally think, when they want to claim like a queer label or identity that they, that that makes them different and unique and it absolves them from other like racism and other and you know, ableism and other kinds of like things that just we all hold, just based on our privileges and our identities.
Right, and I'm curious to see where that idea is gonna go, because where, where is there the conversation around like Sure, maybe you're non-binary, but maybe you're passing as a woman or maybe you're, you know, you know all of these and people do. I think older people do talk about this, about passing and about different privileges that certain people hold depending on their identities. But I do think it's it's it needs to be a little bit more nuanced with young people, because I'm worried that it's the young people feel like, because they are queer or because they are what a different or whatever label that they choose, that upset there that absolves them from other things, and they're like, no, you don't get it. Like I'm, I'm queer, it's like I'm just like you, and I think it's really important to like to talk about those nuances.
0:44:51 - Sean Saifa Wall
Oh, good thing they're not talking to me, because I feel like but you're a different generation and so am I right.
0:45:01 - Danielle Bezalel
It's just kind of like. I just think it's. It's so important that we give young people the space to experiment and be exactly who they are not. It's not a phase. You know they are who they are and that's probably true, and we need to have a really nuanced conversation about like other ways that we still hope, privilege and power and how important that is to hold.
0:45:24 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yo, yo, those are facts. Yeah, those are facts. I mean, I think it's like how do we hold that tension, right? Yeah because I and I see it in myself, you know like I feel like when I was a young 20-something year old, 22, 23, 24, you know I just was like it's just this or that. Right you know, it's either you on board or you not, because this revolution is coming in your face.
You know exactly yeah and it's just like I think for me it's just, I think, as I've gotten older, I think and this is just my experience I'm not speaking for other people, I'm speaking for Cipher but I think for me it's just, I just have more nuance. Right, it's just like I think I live a little bit more in the gray area. Yeah, you know. So, like, for example, you know, I was at this event here in Manchester. It was a screening of Cocoa, the city you know, which is about. It follows, like, I think, for Black trans women in Atlanta and in New York. And so you know it's, it was dope because there were a lot of young, you know, black queer folks, a lot of young Queer people of color in the audience. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, love that. So, you know, whenever I'm in space with young people, I really just try to listen, observe, you know, I'm really just yeah, I just try to listen, period.
And so there's a scene in the film where there's this like dude, the cis, you know six black men who are fishing, and we're talking about the film afterwards and this young person is like you know, yeah, so fishing is so cis, hetero, patriarchal. I was like huh, I was like Um. So I was just like I lived in Georgia, um, I lived in Atlanta and I also lived in the South when I was younger. People fish Right. You know what I'm saying Men, women, children, queers, everyone's fishing right Cause you're trying to eat, right. And so I was just like you know, of course everything is contextual, but like just to slap a whole blanket on something and be like fishing is says hetero, patriarchal, cause this cis dude was fishing, I was like okay. But I was like turn up, you know. And I just offered a gentle pushback and they were like oh, okay, and I'm like yeah, you know just.
But you're right, you know, people have to get their lessons, they have to make their mistakes. They have to as part of the growing and learning process, you know and I think it's just indicative of me as I'm 30.
0:48:12 - Danielle Bezalel
So I'm kind of in this in-between space of being like I'm not you anymore, but I'm not quite, you know, like I haven't been in this work for decades. So I'm in this kind of teeter tottering, of like being, uh, you know, defensive about things when it's like you know one way and then kind of seeing the opposite of being like but maybe I don't know. Yeah, I think the gray area is it only as you get older, I think is like this, this thing that you are able to I don't know, like you have like different glasses on or something like that, like the ability to see, yeah, yeah, and your glasses probably got a stronger prescription.
0:48:55 - Sean Saifa Wall
You're old once again.
0:48:58 - Danielle Bezalel
Once again, you're getting old. That's real. My contact prescription is wild. Like I wake up and I'm like fuck, I can't see a goddamn thing.
0:49:06 - Sean Saifa Wall
It's really something. It's a problem. Listen, you know what I'm saying.
0:49:09 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, all right, we're chatting about lots of things left and right. Um, I would love to know, like, in terms of you know, back to back to this film, back to your film, as I will always say, although Julie.
0:49:24 - Sean Saifa Wall
Cohen, we're going to keep.
0:49:25 - Danielle Bezalel
We're going to keep saying it. Um, but back to the film that you're in. You know all about intersex activism. I'm wondering, like, in the years to come, with whatever kind of like connection that you will continue to have to the space, like, what work is there kind of left to be done that you really want, like listeners, to know, as someone who's been in the space for a really long time, who knows the space really well when it comes to intersex rights and happiness?
0:49:56 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's interesting when I hear people intersex, people use the phrase intersex joy, right, intersex joy, and you know, I'm just like huh, I was curious about it, you know, because I think for me I've said this in interviews, but I think you know there, I think there are moments where you can feel joy, right, I think you can feel joy in different parts of your life, right, and I think you know almost this term.
Intersex joy is like this kind of recoil, this kind of snapback or this kind of a clapback to sort of trauma, right, because people are like, oh, I don't want to be in this trauma narrative, like I want to show the joy, I want to show happiness. And I think that was one of the things in the film Everybody, where Julia was like we have to focus on the joy. And you know, shayna Kiznek, who's like, who's a creative producer, was also like, yeah, intersex joy. And I remember I had a conversation with Shayna or Shauna I think that's the pronunciation and I was just like you know, I think there's something really profound, like when I hear trans folks talk about gender euphoria, like I feel, even as a trans person, I feel that right, Because I think there's something really profound and deep about you know, sharing your pronouns with people and people respecting your pronouns, or being desired for having a trans body right, or being able to show off your scars at the beach right, or to sort of like be able to get a script for testosterone or estrogen or estradiol, right, even though those freedoms are being attacked right Right now.
I think there was this sort of like this period, and I think they're still there.
I think we just are dealing with different issues at the moment, but I think there's something like I witnessed it like this sort of this evolution of gender euphoria, right, especially when gender identity disorder was de-pathologized, right, and it was sort of like gender dysphoria Not too much better, but the thing is it's like again, it's sort of like there were these huge strides made for trans people right by trans people and by trans allies, so that would bring about gender euphoria right. And so for me, I think like intersex joy would be sort of like more people knowing about intersex stuff, right? More people are getting curious about their own bodies, right, and being like I want to do a genetic test. I wonder why my clit is really big, what's up with that. Or like, wow, you know, like, I can do this really cool thing.
I don't know whatever, you know, like I think there's something also about doctors, whether they be urologists and the chronologists, not looking at intersex variations as a pathology or disorder, right, and intersex children, intersex infants, sort of being, when they're born, they're being celebrated and not, sort of like, harmed in order to make their bodies align with one gender or another right, and so I just feel like there's just so many points of entry for people to sort of like create this vision of intersex joy that I laid out.
Right, because you talk to another intersex person, they have their own vision of what intersex joy could be right, but I think, for me, I think there's just so much work to be done, there's so many ways to enter, and I think about it two ways. Right, I think about it like, like I said earlier at the top of the you know podcast, it's like, you know, intersex activism isn't for everybody and it shouldn't be for everybody. Right, like people just deserve time to just be, to heal, to date, to study, to do whatever they want to do. Right, because that's what liberation is. And, yeah, I think I just want, I think, two things that I see from my vantage point that would really change the game is one, you know, people just growing up with the bodies that they have and there are. There are people, they're actually like a lot of people, and I'm really interested in hearing their experiences. Right, people who grow up who haven't had surgical or medical intervention. I'm just like, yes, we need more of those stories out there.
Right, because for me, that's intersex joy. Right, like not being shamed for who you are. Right, because I think, even with those people who haven't had medical interventions, there's still silence. Right, there's still some degree of stigma, right, and so for me, it's just like I want to see more people escaping harm. I want to see more people sort of proud and be like them. You know, I'm just intersex and this is what it is, and I see it on TikTok right.
I see the young people being like I'm intersex, you know what that is, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, tell them, tell them, tell them, you know. And so I just feel like I think we are winning, I think we are getting ground, and I think at least. The intersex movement in the US is a little more than 30 years old, and movements take decades, they take centuries right. And it just keeps building and that feels very young, actually 30 years.
Oh, very young, very young, right? And so the thing is it's like I think things have been accelerated because of the internet, because of social media, because of algorithms. You know what I'm saying, but I do feel like you know, if we've come this far again speaking for the intersex movement in the US, because it's different in other contexts but if we've come this far in 30 years, I can only imagine where we'll be in the next 30 years and hopefully I'll be allowed to see that, and maybe I won't, maybe I'll just be some dust somewhere. You know what I'm saying. Or just you know, on the other side of the veil, be like oh yeah, give them hell, kids.
0:56:37 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, absolutely so much left to be done. And also, like again, you are just instrumental in the success of this movement in this country, and that's not just me saying that, that is just a fact of the matter. That is just well known, I think.
0:57:00 - Sean Saifa Wall
Oh no, it's just so sweet, just so sweet to me.
0:57:06 - Danielle Bezalel
I'm just telling the truth and I feel very lucky to know you and to learn from you and to have you on as a two-timer for this podcast. I can't wait to see what you'll do in the next three years and we'll have a reunion for another episode and we'll see what happens. But why don't you tell people where they can find you and learn more about your work?
0:57:30 - Sean Saifa Wall
Yeah, I mean, you know people can hit up my website, sean cypher com. So it's my first name, sean cypher com. People can find me if people still use Facebook. Lord, I'm on Facebook. I'm about to get off Twitter because it's a hellscape, sure is. I'm on Instagram at CypherEmerges. I'm sticking my toe on TikTok, but we're bored of it. Tiktok. You know, but I don't have time for TikTok. I'm like I'm trying to write a damn dissertation. Tiktok ain't going to take me out like that, oh man, hours.
0:58:06 - Danielle Bezalel
You're just out there, for you know it's tough to get out of that hole.
0:58:10 - Sean Saifa Wall
See mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. What is it? What do they call it? The K-hole?
0:58:14 - Danielle Bezalel
Yes, they do call it a K-hole. You know, so yeah, tik tok the K-hole of Gen Z for sure.
0:58:22 - Sean Saifa Wall
So I'm just like I ain't trying to mess around with that TikTok. I'm not trying to write this dissertation, baby.
0:58:29 - Danielle Bezalel
That's so, so good. Well, once again, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for people to hear this and for you to be the last episode of this season. Wow, just wow. Sex Ed With DB listeners. Another season is coming next month, so stay tuned and thank you again for being here.
0:58:52 - Sean Saifa Wall
Thank you. Thank you for the invite.