Friends to Lovers and Fighting for Trans Rights with Activists
ELLE DERAN AND EZRA MICHEL
Danielle Bezalel
And here I am with Elle and Ezra. Hello, Elle and Ezra, welcome to Sex Ed with DB. How are we doing today?
Elle and Ezra
Great, great. How are you?
Danielle Bezalel
I'm very good, I just had some lunch, so I'm feeling fed, I'm feeling ready, I'm feeling just ecstatic. I guess, if you will, we love lunch. I will, we love lunch.
Elle and Ezra
I woke up this morning and I was like, like, anxious, like I don't like seven, And so I made emotional biscuits. Which is something that I do when I need to save my mental health is I make biscuits and they are delicious, Yeah.
Elle and Ezra
They turned to me and they were like should I just make biscuits, I think? And I was like, is that going to help you right now? And they were like, yeah, yeah.
Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I feel that way. I live on like a commune, if you will. It's kind of like a co-op in Oakland. I live with my fiance and I live in our own one bedroom apartment and we have like 17 people who kind of share things like this big kitchen, adu and a backyard and stuff. And one of our housemates is an amazing cook and he recently made a slew of cinnamon rolls and was just like whoever wants one, and I was like me I'm, i'm, i want one. And it's just a nice, nice little treat when you're feeling a little down or anxious to get that sugar and then crash right back down, right, precisely, yeah, and there's something about just like the process of it all. I often think of just having a direction for my attention, that is like a sustained activity. I'd love for both of you to introduce yourselves, tell us about yourselves and the work that you do, and I would just kind of love to hear, like, what you both are passionate about. I think, like in discovering both of you and reading about both of you, you both have many, many talents And I think that it's hard to grasp in one podcast interview. But we can sure as well try, i think, so why don't we go ahead and get started with that?
Elle and Ezra
So I'm Ezra, I use the pronouns, And I'm primarily a musician, hairdresser and screen print artist. I'd say I'm an entrepreneur, but that's so vague. I'm very passionate about transmasculine visibility and representation, maybe not the most common narrative of transmasculinity, so like allowing for nuance within the umbrella of transmasculinity and like being an effeminate transman and like just being visible. Doing that has been really rewarding and healing for me. So I feel like that's, what else do I do? Is that it?
Elle and Ezra
Yeah, you do so much. He's also very handy, like I'm very handy.
0:10:16 - Elle and Ezra
Good.
Elle and Ezra
Yeah, incredibly handy.
Elle and Ezra
Yeah, craft like oh, i'm also a hairdresser.
Danielle Bezalel
That's very true. That's very, very sweet. And what about you? I'll tell you about you.
Elle and Ezra
My name is Elle Duran, my pronouns are they and she, and I'm an actor, a singer and a content creator, and So I went to school for musical theater and I've sort of expanded my, the scope of my, my career, to include like advocacy and, specifically, sort of like using What I learned about, like storytelling and communication, to to share just sort of like, just discoveries about Just my life and my journey towards self-actualization and whatnot. And I just realized during the pandemic how, you know, like social media is such a It's such a tool for like catharsis and like mirrored catharsis, so I can share something and find some sort of like gratification by like Sharing this piece of myself, like are this, this, this realization, and and then other folks can be like, that Resonates with me. I never thought of it that way or yes, totally, or no, absolutely not.
But like, having that, like that connection is, um is definitely like. My passion is just to like to drive folks to Connect deeper to themselves by just literally simply sharing. That's very much. My passion is to help drive connections for folks to like to connect deeper to themselves and others and community and just like, and and do that by specifically sharing, like My journey, a very like vulnerability is the currency, for sure totally.
Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I feel that so deeply for me whenever I do any sort of sex ed teaching in the classroom because I think When you connect with the youth and they don't think you're complete dog-doo doo. You're like, okay, I'm doing something right here. Like when they think that you're trustworthy or they're able to come to you after class and be like Hey, I didn't really want to ask this in front of everybody else, but I trust your opinion. Like, what do you think about this?
Elle and Ezra
Right.
Elle and Ezra
I think that is kind of like on social media, that's kind of like the virtual way of doing that, of being like hey, like I really appreciated what you just posted, like this is my story and what you said really really relates to me and my story, and I think that that's like really powerful definitely.
Elle and Ezra
I mean we all like to share so many universal human experiences and I think the only thing that's like positioned me in this situation is one like my background in performing and like being able to Communicate a message in a way that like that might, that is entertaining, you know. But then also I think like I've, i've just like I'm, through answering folks questions, i've like found a way of speaking that kind of like That really resonates with me, like the more that I've been called to put words to my experience, the better I get at it, and I think that's what resonates with people. It's like I'm Finding words that they might not have the opportunity to find for themselves or for their own experience. So it's like sharing that verbiage can just like Like words can, is, are a tool for connection with, like ourselves and others. So it's like I think that's what I Hope to offer folks is words, yes yeah, that's.
Danielle Bezalel
That's definitely how I feel whenever I see a loke and any of their content. I feel like, if your listener doesn't know who a loke is, search all okay. They are an incredible poet and queer activist and trans activist and the way that they speak makes me Emotional because I feel like I'm kind of in incapable sometimes of being able to say the words that I want to say, to express myself and I feel like they Do a really fantastic job of that.
And when I discovered you both, I felt like you both did that in various ways, either through music or through skits or through, you know, just talking to camera and kind of just sharing a story, and I think it's really powerful.
Elle and Ezra
Yeah, a loke is definitely a huge inspiration. Their book was one that. Their book Beyond the Gender Binary is one that I had, like all of my loved ones, read when I first Came out, just to sort of give them some context. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah amazing.
Danielle Bezalel
So we rarely do Interviews with couples on the podcast. It's, i think we've only done like one and we weren't even talking about Them being a couple. It was like they happened to work together on this thing that we were interviewing them about, and so it's really nice to have you both here Together, and so I wonder if you can just give us a little bit of more detail about, like, your love story and how you met and like what that was like And how long you've been together and just whatever. Whatever you want to share. Yeah, that's my favorite story.
Elle and Ezra
Great. We started out as friends and. It was cool, but it was, I'll pretend no. We like to start out by just being in this like queer Trans friend group.
That was like a lot of like people on social media just kind of started hanging out together and going out partying being in our early 20s and just sure going for it and I Like I just was like really taken by L, because they were always the person in our friend group that would like say something Hilarious under their breath and nobody would hear it, or people would just like not like they would hear it, but they wouldn't like really let it sink in and and I'd be like the only one that would get the joke and I just thought that they were like the funniest person I'd ever met in my entire life and And and so then I just started standing next to them, like when we would be hanging out as a group. I would like to find them and beeline for them, trying to hear their funny things they were gonna say. And that was how it started. For me It was just like a genuine admiration for their sense of humor. And then, and then we fucked.
Elle and Ezra
I was just cut to like yeah, I was like you're funny.
Elle and Ezra
Now we have started. Then we I was really interested in in in like exploring intimacy with with our friends, because I had been in a polyamorous dynamic with another person and we we had an open relationship and He was really into hooking up a lot with other people and I was like every time I tried to hook up with somebody it was really lame and I I was like kind of giving up on like hooking up with strangers on apps. And then I was still horny and I was like what am I gonna do?
Danielle Bezalel
When you say lame, was it like just not a good connection, like what was happening?
Elle and Ezra
So, as a person with a pussy, like this is a really common experience for folks trying to hook up with people with dicks who have like People with pussies trying to hook up with people with dicks. That's, it's like. It's like I don't know. For me It was like I would just kind of be in acceptance of the fact that I probably wouldn't come. I would just be like, well, I mean, I might have some pleasurable experience but I'm probably not going to finish. And then I would just go into the hookup knowing that. And it was already kind of a defeatist mindset And it was only because it was based on actual lived experience. And over the course of my early 20s hooking up with people, it was probably 90% of the time I wouldn't, i wouldn't finish. So it was just like lame Right, i don't know. And then there are many times and right people.
Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, many people with vulvas can confirm. Personally, I think it’s changing, like anecdotally, and like just the data that are coming out around, like the way in which people with vulvas and women identifying people are interacting with their partners. I do think that that conversation is shifting a bit, but I do.
Yeah, but I definitely agree that, like, if we're talking like five, 10, 15 years ago, like that was not really the case, No, and also the internalized shame about advocating for my pleasure that I had already developed over the course of my lifetime.
Elle and Ezra
That was definitely affecting my ability to like, say like hey, what about me, bro? What's up? Like. And usually there were cis gay men who were like I've never been with a pussy before. I'm just like I don't know. Or they'd be like I'm going to make you come 17 times And I'm like I doubt, I doubt that. Try once first, Jesus, right, so, um. So that was what led me to wanting to hook up with my friends because they were all hot and like fun And I was like, great, let's try this. So I was really forward with my friend group and I was like, what about intimacy? And then I was like, let's play, spin the bottle and see what happens.
And that was the first time we kissed as it was so suave, because everyone, almost every, no, everyone. I was in swab, you were swab. Everyone had kissed everyone in the room except we hadn't kissed yet and we were playing it, so like the person who spun got to decide who the person landed on would kiss, so Ezra's like spun the bottle and it landed on me and he said kiss me And I was like insert squat here. And then we young kissed and it was magical, was it a pack?
Danielle Bezalel
Was it a make out? Was it like oh sorry, we got to go, like we gotta go finish this somewhere else?
Elle and Ezra
It was like there was a tongue. Was there tongue,
God, I touched your tongue. Maybe, I'm sure we touched tongues.
Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I'm sure of it, I must have.
Elle and Ezra
I mean as a sober person, I'm not, but I was a little, a little tipsy.
Elle and Ezra
So I can confirm we touch.
0:22:32 - Danielle Bezalel
Okay, and so okay, I have a lot. I have a lot to unpack here. I mean, first of all, I want to touch on this idea of intimacy with friends. I think there is a very real thing where people feel this like super closeness with friends. And like it's very rare, I feel, to hear friend groups kind of interacting in that way. Can you maybe speak a little bit to like the scary parts of that or like the celebratory parts or what that looked like for your friend group?
0:22:59 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, I mean it didn't go well, let's just say that.
But I think that, like, in theory, we were all very much like, just just like a lot of folks are especially in like the queer community just like exploring a new or redefining the boundaries of love and intimacy, and just sort of like recognizing, oh, like I had like enjoy this person's company, like I might not like partnership might not be correct, but like we're both physically attracted to each other, like maybe we can share a moment and share one together and just enjoy it and let it be innocent and playful.
And the nights that we were like we're really lovely. And also like I think you know we could have the conversation. I think there were feelings involved. Like as much as we wanted to operate under this I'll speak for myself as much as I wanted to operate under this ideology of a free, limitless love, I wasn't left without like the conditioning and the emotional connection and the like, the expectations that come with being intimate with someone. So it's like a theory. I still like to believe in it wholeheartedly, but in practice for me it was much more challenging than it sounds, you know. So I don't. I don't regret it by any means. Good Yeah Of course, because we all believe.
0:24:40 - Elle and Ezra
Thank you, of course.
0:24:44 - Danielle Bezalel
But like she's like, I have something to say, Yeah.
0:24:48 - Elle and Ezra
I don't regret it. No, good Awesome.
0:24:50 - Elle and Ezra
It was definitely like that. It was definitely a tricky time dealing with the fallout of that.
0:24:56 - Danielle Bezalel
That was like for your friends too, or like for everyone involved the friend group exploded.
0:25:03 - Elle and Ezra
Oh boy Yeah, and it was really a catalyst for the explosion was this, this us getting together thing Yeah.
0:25:12 - Danielle Bezalel
Us falling madly in love And you starting to build shelves around your house. It was amazing.
0:25:18 - Elle and Ezra
It was really the shelves that did it.
0:25:20 - Elle and Ezra
It was the day.
0:25:22 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, I mean, I could get that especially. Yeah, I mean friend groups that are very close, like have a certain dynamic and when two people of that group shift that dynamic, there could be hurt feelings. Or maybe it's not the same as before. I don't know if either of you or both of you have seen the incredible HBO show called Somebody Somewhere, but it's a really cute show And it's with Bridget Everett, who is a medium Bridget Everett.
Yeah, okay, then you have to see this show. So basically, she's going through a hard time. She likes moving back home because her sister passed away of cancer and she needs to kind of deal with the fallout of that And her mom has an alcohol problem And it's like a. It's a comedy, but it's a little dark. And in season two I won't spoil anything because I want you to see for yourself but there very much is this piece of like. There's a really close friendship that she has with, like this queer friend of hers in her town who like doesn't really date that much, and then he like potentially, you know, finds a boyfriend and she's like very hurt by this, based on how close their friendship is, and they kind of unfolds from there. But I think I like it very much. I just saw an episode like that this week.
0:26:41 - Elle and Ezra
So I think it's very relevant.
0:26:43 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, it's tough, like how, how did you kind of navigate that repair? or like, what does that look like with you two and your friends now?
0:26:51 - Elle and Ezra
Um, well, i think that what really happened was the truth of our incompatibility was revealed really, really quickly when, when we were trying to deal with the repair and the fallout And like I did my best to keep my side of the street clean by like doing anything I could to like be really, really honest and upfront with everybody, while everybody seemed not everybody, but like, while it seemed to be like like there was a lot of fear and a lot of like talking behind people's backs and a lot of that, and I was just like I can't do this.
Like I'm one, I'm in recovery, so like secrets and lying and like that kind of stuff is so insidious for me, like that that threatens my sobriety really quickly, so like I can't do that. Like that's why I was just like I have to like we have to talk, like let's get together as a group and talk, and it just like was really quickly revealed that we had different priorities and different worldviews about autonomy and like what, what it meant to be in control of our, our bodies, in our, our lives and and not like have ownership over folks And that's basically like what I learned, and so we came away from it just being like let's it's, it's just you and me, babe, yeah.
0:28:23 - Elle and Ezra
And also I think we just realized how good we felt together And the more we liked, we leaned into spending time with each other and realized how good and easy and clean it was.
it kind of highlighted like in all aspects of my life, you know, like what doesn't feel as good and clean and easy you know and revealed that for sure, by just existing alongside this amazing feeling, recognizing, oh, like I deserve to curate my life to be full of things and people that feel as good as this, and that's the the beautiful thing. And it, i think, like, as folks, like you know, grow up and I think, in, in, in your twenties, really like that's sort of the journey is like at first chasing um bigness, chasing like attention, chasing like whatever is like the cool thing to do, whatever is hot, going out, looking cool, feeling cool, and then realizing, like, as you get used to that feeling, realizing that it's superficial and you're craving more.
And then, as you are seeking out more and realizing that you deserve to be picky, that I'd rather have less and higher quality things and people in my life than be surrounded by people who I don't feel like, I don't feel like I'd be back and yeah, yeah. So like I think now, my world is smaller and richer at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:30:06 - Danielle Bezalel
We're getting into the weeds of it.
0:30:08 - Elle and Ezra
This is not part of the script. This is good stuff.
0:30:12 - Danielle Bezalel
And yeah, I totally relate to that. I recently turned 30, this well, not that recent, just past December, so I'm kind of midway through my 30th year here, awesome Congrats. Thank you very much. But yeah, I totally get that.
I think like relationships take a lot of like love and compatibility for them to feel like effortless and light And for some of the ones that feel really worth it, where both of you really love each other and you want to put in maybe that extra effort and work then maybe it's worth it, but like figuring out where there is lightness and where there is richness, without maybe feeling like you're kind of putting in like a lot, a lot, a lot of emotional labor that you're not really able to add, considering other things that are going on in your life, like it's important to take stock of that.
0:30:58 - Elle and Ezra
Absolutely, definitely. Yeah. It just so happens that Ellen and I are incredibly compatible and that so far it's just been like easy breezy, beautiful cover girl, yeah, cover squirrel.
0:31:13 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, cover squirrels. We're really like waiting for it to get hard and it just gets easier. It's, yeah, it feels that special. It really is rare.
0:31:24 - Elle and Ezra
I agree, I totally agree. I mean I, i, i've been around the blast. Let me tell you, I've been around a few times. Yeah. In Oakland. I had to leave because I fucked my way through just every single person. I was a mill being. I went to Mills, yeah, and that's like a Mills being. Got it Yeah.
0:31:47 - Danielle Bezalel
Mills College is a college in Oakland. for the listener that doesn't know It's a lesbian college in Oakland. Oh, it's exclusively lesbian. They're like, are you lesbian? Come on in. Come on in.
0:31:58 - Elle and Ezra
No, literally my essay was like I'm like, yeah, it was like I don't know how I got into that school but somehow. But yeah, so like I definitely. I've definitely had a lot of relationships in my day. I started dating when I was in sixth grade and then just didn't stop.
0:32:19 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, from then on.
0:32:20 - Elle and Ezra
So, and so it's special what you incredibly special of what Ellen and I have like this is I mean they're, you're my forever person, forever and ever. Amen.
0:32:33 - Danielle Bezalel
Don't I'm going to cry. Okay, it's nice. It's so nice.
0:32:37 - Elle and Ezra
I know And it's nice to witness and it's very it's very special.
0:32:41 - Danielle Bezalel
So thank you for being interviewed together and sharing your love story. We're going to switch gears to comedy right quick.
0:36:10 - Elle and Ezra
Let's do it.
0:36:11 - Danielle Bezalel
Because, as I mentioned to you offline before this interview, I discovered both of you from your hilarious viral video A Day in the Life of a Trans Couple. We're going to play that right now so that the listener, let me tell you, highly recommend you seeing it, because the visuals are chef's kisses. They're very, very good and they very much add to the video. But for now, I will give you the audio of Elle and Ezra's A Day in the Life of a Trans Couple. We'll play that right now.
0:36:42 - Elle and Ezra
A Day in the Life of a Trans Couple. First we wake up and immediately stab each other with our daily dose of hormones, paid for by the conservative taxpayers of America.
0:36:51 - Elle and Ezra
We get out of bed, brush our teeth, wash our face. Then we stand in the mirror and scream at our bodies because we hate them.
0:36:58 - Elle and Ezra
Wrong, wrong, wrong. After we get dressed in the clothing of the opposite sex, we make some coffee and breakfast. On the menu today is egg, homemade biscuit and leftover meat from Ezra's top surgery Mmm protein Time for some exercise.
0:37:11 - Elle and Ezra
It is my all-time dream to dominate in women's sports, so I'll spend two hours bench-pressing Ezra while he researches local public restrooms that we haven't terrorized yet.
0:37:20 - Elle and Ezra
Then to get out of the house, we'll go hunt for the neighborhood children so we can force them into drag and teach them the ins and outs of transgenderism. Once we've successfully turned all the kids' trance, we'll head back home to start winding down, we will spend at least three hours engaging in biological heterosexual intercourse just to pull an Uno Reverse card on God and really rub it in her face. Is this what you want?
0:37:42 - Elle and Ezra
from us. Before bed, we always make sure to pray to Satan, thanking him for blessing us with mental illness and doing his work through us. Thanks for reading.
0:37:51 - Danielle Bezalel
Every time it just gets better and better and better.
Okay, so I've seen this video like maybe six times. Wow, i sent it to everyone I know because I feel like it's very unique in that it does a really, really good job of using comedy to show, like, the absurdity of these really common myths and misrepresentations of trans people that we're seeing so much these days in very hateful ways in the media. And I would love to just talk about this because it's completely viral, millions and millions of views at this point and I would just love to know, like, the process of making it Like, can you talk about comedy and using that as, like, a way to fight hatred and like share love and light and silliness in this way?
0:38:41 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, that's I mean, that's the kind of humor that happens in our household all day. We're just kind of using those like I don't know.
We're very our sense of humor is very like vulgar and extreme and it's often like reclaiming the like narratives about us and like fully claiming them as if they're true, because we think it's hilarious, because literally all we do is like skip around all day and make biscuits, like Yeah, And Yeah, And it's like it's just like, honestly, what had happened a couple weeks prior is that we got like bullied on the internet by this guy who has like this really huge podcast, and he just like made fun of our relationship and it really took me out And it was really like just really affected by it one because he sent all of his like pawns to like, you know, like over to our page and so like I was getting like thousands of hate comments and death threats and it was just like overwhelming And so like I didn't land on comedy immediately.
You know, like I had to go through a lot of grief and pain and just like The stages, yeah for sure, and it's like it really threw me off And um, and as So like as I was coming out of it, like I knew and we knew that we wanted to like respond to it somehow, and um, and like you know, the first inclination is like like attack that person you know like, attack him back, but knowing like that that isn't good for That isn't a good thing to do because it just It's not a good thing to do.
0:40:35 - Danielle Bezalel
It's not a good thing to do.
0:40:37 - Elle and Ezra
It doesn't feel good, even though it might scratch an itch, um, but but then, uh, then one day, i think, I came back from like an appointment or something and I was like, and we were just like how did it I have no idea, I don't even it feels.
0:40:53 - Elle and Ezra
It feels like a blur. It feels like a blur. We just started writing this script. We wanted, we knew we wanted to make something together.
0:41:01 - Elle and Ezra
We initially were going to write a song together and that ended in flames, yeah.
0:41:07 - Elle and Ezra
That's right. That's right. A song to the hater, a love letter to the haters. It was like really Why are we focusing on that? It was so hard, that's-.
0:41:16 - Danielle Bezalel
Um but yeah.
0:41:17 - Elle and Ezra
I feel like I feel like, with what you're saying about like the like, like the initial responses to like clap back, somehow For me I had this epiphany while I was processing my, my reaction to that podcaster guy. I was thinking about, like why it's so uh infuriating to even have to think about a clap back Because it insinuates that this is an argument and it is not.
It is somebody who is insane, saying false things about real people They do not know And then saying that they're true. It's like, it's like. If this were any other situation, it would be so obvious, like if this person was saying like this about any other oppressed minority, about, about a fucking like if there was a tree, and then he was like there's no tree, people would be like you're dumb, like, or like what's wrong with or can you? Can you see?
0:42:32 - Elle and Ezra
And then, if he's, like but then if he can see, then he's just nuts, you know. but because he's talking about trans people, he's like, well, let's hear him out. And it's like, why? Why would I want to hear him out? That's dumb.
0:42:47 - Danielle Bezalel
It's infuriating, there's no kind of like rationalizing this, like we're not going to ever be on the same page here, because you are literally saying false things that are actively harmful and hurtful And yeah. I'm really sorry that you had to go through that also.
0:43:05 - Elle and Ezra
It sucked, But like the thing is like transness and gender nonconformity has been like the butt of the joke in the media for like decades, so it's so easy for folks in the media and folks responding to content like spewing lies about transness or laughing at trans people to like minimize it, to like see it as something that's like just sick or like laughable or pathetic.
Yeah, And it's like, And it's you know. I think what we both discovered was the power of making yourself the butt of the joke and claiming it and saying and like, like, we like, we joke all day about being like, like, like.
0:43:58 - Elle and Ezra
Dirty dirty transsexuals.
0:44:01 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, like just to be like we like, yeah, we we we everything they say about us. We do too. Just like. Like just to, because it's funny to us. It actually is.
0:44:15 - Elle and Ezra
It is funny. There are things about it that are hilarious. It's just that we don't have the animosity or the mind.
0:44:22 - Danielle Bezalel
It's all minus the death threats, right, really, it's just, it's just not funny And it was just like love and care and like kindness and control of the narrative of like when you want to do that and how you want to do that Exactly.
0:44:37 - Elle and Ezra
And who you do it with.
0:44:38 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, And like that's the whole difference, right Yeah.
0:44:42 - Elle and Ezra
And so, with this video is very much like, let us show them what it would actually look like if these things were true. Yeah, like if we. Like, if you are going to villainize us without actually knowing a trans person or connecting to a trans person or hearing them out or seeing the humanity in them, like, watch a human, two human, trans people going through the motions of what you say is true and just like, look how absurd you look.
0:45:14 - Danielle Bezalel
Like Right And I think It's like their own words, throwing them back in their face, Absolutely.
0:45:20 - Elle and Ezra
And it's like I think it just felt really good to get such a great response to it, because we were laughing while filming it all day. It was so fun.
0:45:33 - Danielle Bezalel
It was funny, it's really funny.
0:45:35 - Elle and Ezra
The footage that we have of us like sprinting through the streets, through our neighborhood.
0:45:41 - Elle and Ezra
We should do some bloopers or something. We should, we should.
0:45:46 - Elle and Ezra
It was just, it was really healing, being able to transmute that, like tension and that energy, that negative energy, into like laughter, and I think that is powerful.
0:46:00 - Elle and Ezra
I don't think it's the only way, but I think it is perhaps an underutilized way in the social media space. I agree.
0:46:11 - Elle and Ezra
Right.
0:46:13 - Elle and Ezra
Definitely.
0:46:14 - Elle and Ezra
A lot of folks don't have access to the language that they like a lot. like. Like I don't have statistics in my brain, I don't have beautiful sentences that are gonna cut down somebody who's trying to bully me. Like I don't have that, I'm not, that's not my strong suit, so, but I am hilarious and I can make a video, and so like I think leaning into what our strengths are only builds our self-esteem and our self-confidence and it maintains our power too. Like I don't wanna engage with a bully and use energy to do that and feel depleted afterwards. I already feel bad, you know. So like I want my. If I'm gonna respond, I want it to be life-giving.
0:47:11 - Danielle Bezalel
And how did it feel when it started going viral? Like what was that initial kind of? Was it super overwhelming? Did you feel like, oh, like shit, I didn't expect this. Like I'm gonna pull up you know and see what the most current count is, but like it's wild, like it's how many? What are we? 200,. It's been liked by 250,000 people. It's been viewed 2.1 million times. Like that, in and of itself, must have felt like oh my God, what is this here? What have we created?
0:47:50 - Elle and Ezra
Huh, yeah, does it feel that way?
0:47:55 - Danielle Bezalel
I don't know, I mean we're really used to this, No definitely not Like.
0:48:02 - Elle and Ezra
That is definitely abnormal, but it feels, is it though, i don't know, i think, i think honestly like I don't know, i don't know the like measure of on the internet. Sometimes it feels like you're only as successful as your last post. So, it's like we're on to the next one.
0:48:22 - Elle and Ezra
A bit. you know it kind of immediately. That sucks. It sucks that it's like that A little bit. Yeah, no, it definitely does.
But it's like I mean, i definitely am incredibly proud of it And while it was happening, it like it, like we were like refreshing all day And we were like so happy that, like people were like having the response that we we hoped they'd had And like we got like I mean we both on Instagram specifically, only people who follow us can comment. So we got very few like hate comments, maybe one that was just annoying, like I roll, but like yeah.
0:48:58 - Elle and Ezra
I'll take an eye roll. Yeah, I roll with us too.
0:49:02 - Elle and Ezra
But it felt really, it felt really great that we would like, like that folks could laugh with us you know definitely.
0:49:10 - Elle and Ezra
And like we went out like a few nights after we posted it and it was like we were at some queer birthday party and people were like we love your city. We love your city.
0:49:20 - Danielle Bezalel
Oh my God, people came up to you like strangers.
0:49:22 - Elle and Ezra
No, well, like celebrities, like other influencer type people. Cool. Yeah, it's just it's cool, it was fun. Yeah, it's a little celebrity moment. It feels like Yeah.
0:49:35 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah.
0:49:37 - Elle and Ezra
It's fun.
0:49:37 - Danielle Bezalel
I love it, i think it's, it's so important, it's so funny It to me like as someone who really values humor and like you said, ezra, with like, oh, like you know, we don't, we're not always like, oh, 56% of X, y, z, popular, like that people don't like remember that really Like. They remember things that made them feel a certain way.
And I remember how I felt the six times I watched your video, which is like this is so unique, this is so funny, this is so important And I think, like you know, just to segue really quickly I think, like, because we're talking about like celebrating transness, i think it's equally as important to talk about, like the current state of kind of like what trans folks and non-binary folks are experiencing in this country and how dire of a situation it is, and not only talk about that and talk about the celebration, but like I would be remiss not to kind of ask, right, like, what should we be paying attention to, like folks who are listening right now when it comes to how important it is to advocate for queer, trans, non-binary rights and lives of people?
0:50:51 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah Well, I think most people, I believe , are a bit indifferent. Like most people probably think, oh, trans women shouldn't be playing in women's sports, like, because they have this idea about like, about like biological sex that's not like the whole picture. or they have an idea about, like the rules of trans women competing, or I don't know. People have a lot of ideas about transness and like opinions that they haven't really learned. They don't enter these conversations with curiosity. They enter with, like looking to get validation about how they already feel.
0:51:39 - Elle and Ezra
I just wish that people would like it. Most people don't know a trans person, they just know transness as this idea and they have all of these narratives about transness that aren't built by trans people themselves. So it's like. But when we're looking at like, the like, the political climate around transness and also the like violence and vitriol and the like, these narratives that are being spread about us are truly the stage like what I don't know.
Someone said it's like stage seven or eight of like genocide, like, truly like calling trans people groomers and pedophiles, politicians calling like trans specific trans people, groomers and pedophiles who, like are literally just just trans people in the world, like just for existing. It is, it is, it is so vicious, it is. It is intentional attacks in order to keep folks in line with this like oppressive status quo, in order in order to just like for folks to like perpetuate their ideas of their own supremacy, like in their identity and where, in way of being And like it is all like it all stems from narratives and like rules like that that were put in place like with like like colonizers and colonization and this, this way of creating a supreme, evolved race, and and when we break it down and peel back the layers. It really is like white supremacy at work And like the fact that, like there are many cultures around the world who have historically celebrated gender nonconformity and transness like that has been entirely erased in the name of creating a supreme race. But even the gender binary which Alok talks about this too originally, when it was like instated and and and like imposed onto the population it didn't apply to black and brown people because it was considered like a sign of evolution is existing under these norms. And so, like I just people don't know this And as a trans person, like as a trans person who was up against being challenged all day, every day I have done so much research and just trying to learn about my own experience and why I'm feeling this way and why these rules and why the status quo feels like makes me miserable to try to mold myself into.
It's like that feeling is real and people really don't see the experiential as equally real and valid as the physical. So they just want to focus on my physical body, not just not my experience. They don't see my experience in this body as equally real and valid as my body itself. And because they don't see themselves that way, they can't see themselves beyond the structures that they have been bred to to to like serve They are they like, and if they just could see us as a key to like expand themselves beyond these limitations, as opposed to like, recognizing that, like, we are not a threat to them.
We are a threat to the structures that oppress us all, and they don't know the difference between themselves and these structures that they've made sacrifices to uphold, because they're conscious and, and, and I'm, and I'm any way in a lot of ways.
0:55:24 - Elle and Ezra
You're so hot.
0:55:29 - Elle and Ezra
It's just, it's infuriating to have so much clarity and then and then watch people like, just like experience over and over and over again.
Yeah, and just like, just have no compassion or curiosity. You know, like I am. if they could just look into my eyes and see the humanity and also see the joy and euphoria that I have as I have leaned further into this, this, what I know to be true of my identity, like they would not see me as a threat. They would be like I want what they're having, like how did they get to that place? What can I learn from their experience? And many people are like that. Many people are like that's what I've built my platform off of and it's like people's. How people experience me is a reflection of their readiness and willingness to confront what I stir up in them, which is the sacrifices they've made to uphold the gender binary. Is there anything else to add?
0:56:41 - Elle and Ezra
Listen, listen. I'm so in love with you, thanks.
0:56:53 - Elle and Ezra
What was the question?
0:56:55 - Danielle Bezalel
No, Really, really, really good, good follow up there. Basically, the question is like what do we need to be paying attention to?
0:57:07 - Danielle Bezalel
And like why? Why is it critical that we're kind of having this conversation right?
0:57:12 - Elle and Ezra
now. Sure, I think that we need to be paying attention to our lives. Okay, i feel like the main, the main thing that I'm noticing about the bullies and the people who are, like, inciting genocide upon us, wanting to kill us, is that they don't see our humanity. Like El said, you know, and it's like, like, but I also have internalized transphobia that allows me to disregard my own humanity and the humanity of other trans people around me. I'm still working through like, having been raised in this transphobic system, and so I think that the main thing that I would suggest is like, unlearning and unpacking our own internalized transphobia as our main priority in general, because, like, we cannot actually change the patterns that we are engaging with that are transphobic If we don't actually change within ourselves to start Like. It's quite simple Like.
The more we lean into unpacking all of our like, weird internalized beliefs about what transness is, the more love we'll have for ourselves, the more love we'll have for people around us and the more compassion and whatever empathy. We're not so different Like, literally. We all know what it feels like to be uncomfortable in our skin. That is a human experience. Just because mine has to do with needing to chop my tits off doesn't mean that it's that much different than somebody who like like it's just, and I think a lot of trans people like to hold on to this idea that like transness is so different than cisness, a trans experience is so different than a cis experience. And yes, it is. And there are so many similarities because we are humans at the end of the day And I think, like, the more I lean into finding our similarities and relating to everybody, like, the more compassion I have for human beings as a whole, and I think that that is really important.
0:59:47 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, and I just think for folks listening to, who I imagine perhaps most of the folks who are listening are like, are potentially very liberal and accepting.
0:59:58 - Danielle Bezalel
They're with it, yeah, with it Yeah.
1:00:02 - Elle and Ezra
So like they've made it this far. So I think really what I want people to know is that this is not the time to run away from the folks in your life who have transphobic viewpoints. Like. This is the time to confront them and educate them, because they are the ones who are voting. That creates like, that gives people the power to take away what makes us want to stay alive. Literally, their desire to take away our healthcare and transgender forming healthcare for trans kids. Like every major medical association, it believes that gender affirming healthcare saves lives.
So if you are not fighting up against people who think, who are trying to take that away from trans kids, then like you are running away from this literal like murder, like it is murder. It's not like it's just, it's so upsetting, like there are. We were in Florida this past weekend and like Ezra was at a gig and just saw like it was such a beautiful experience watching the community come together and also like, just like, speaking to folks who are so afraid of losing what makes life worth living. And it's happening. It's not even a what if it's happening. So it's like it's time to have those hard conversations. It's not it's you know. It's not enough to just cut those people out to protect your peace, because the more we isolate ourselves from the people who are harming us, then the less we can do to stop it.
1:01:53 - Danielle Bezalel
Yeah, really well said And I really appreciate both of your viewpoints and sharing your experiences. I think you know, if you're someone who's listening, who you know, you don't really know where to start. Maybe start in your own community, google, you know, like LGBTQ plus center near me, give them a call, shoot them an email to figure out if you can volunteer or donate or if they want you to be a part of their campaign. Or you know, like start where you are and see how it goes. And yeah, I think it's. You're right, like now is the time to really speak up and speak out and pay attention And Ezra had a specific question for you around your music. But I wonder if it would be more powerful, if you're okay with it, if at the end of this interview and episode we could play one of your songs so folks could hear it. Absolutely.
1:02:48 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, Okay great.
1:02:49 - Danielle Bezalel
I think that's the best way for someone to really get to know someone's music instead of just talking about music. It's like instead of talking about a picture, let's just look at the picture. Yeah, totally, and I think it's the same thing for music. So we can chat about which song after, but listen or, don't you worry, you will get a fantastic performance recorded, not live, listen, listen. We only have an hour together, but I would love to know, just to close out this wonderful interview, and again, thank you both so much for taking the time and hearing your story. It's been really wonderful, but I'm wondering if you can share what's next for you too, maybe as a couple and as individuals, and where can our listeners find both of you?
1:03:30 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah.
1:03:42 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah, career-wise, who knows, baby, I'll still be on the internet and make my videos.
1:03:53 - Elle and Ezra
I don't know, Yeah, i mean, we like making stuff together, i think that we've really tried to maintain very low pressure for that and like really create some boundaries around, like creating stuff together And like we're unlike a lot of couples on the TikTok and Instagram in the sense that, like we don't record every second of our lives together And like, even when we're experiencing something that is hilarious or whatever, like my first thought isn't to take my phone out and start recording it.
So I mean, I feel like the next thing that we do together will be a surprise to all of us, for sure, But we do enjoy being creative together. So we'll see. And then for me, like, I'm gonna be trying to tour in the next year or so. That's my goal And doing some Pride gigs. I'm gonna be at Orange County Pride, Long Beach Pride in July And, yeah, releasing a new song, probably in August-ish and about you even. Yeah.
1:05:14 - Elle and Ezra
That's okay. Yeah, also check out as well as a clothing brand Pussyboy Apparel. Pussyboy Apparel, it is exceptional.
1:05:26 - Elle and Ezra
It's like a clothing line I created for Transmasks, Empowerment and Body Positivity And love.
1:05:34 - Elle and Ezra
Incredible.
1:05:35 - Danielle Bezalel
Incredible.
1:05:36 - Elle and Ezra
Yeah it's so good, it's very good, and we're confident I'm very talented.
1:05:43 - Danielle Bezalel
I'm really fucking good at stuff. Where can folks find you? What are your handles?
1:05:49 - Elle and Ezra
You can find me on TikTok and Instagram at Elle Duran.
1:05:59 - Elle and Ezra
So You can find me on TikTok and Instagram, at EzraMichelleMusic, that's E-Z-R-A M-I-C-H-E-L Music. You can also find me at Pussyboy Apparel on Instagram and TikTok, but the you and Pussy is an underscore because of censorship Of course, of course.
1:06:21 - Danielle Bezalel
Well, I'm really really happy again to meet both of you. Thank you again so much, and now please enjoy Ezra's music.
1:06:30 - Elle and Ezra
Woohoo, thank you.