CURIOUS SEX ED: SEX AND RELIGION
Danielle Bezalel (she/her):
Mariah, Mariah, Mariah.
Mariah Caudillo (she/her):
Hello.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hello again for our third episode. I'm so excited to see you again today.
Mariah:
I'm excited to see you. It's a great day.
Danielle Bezalel:
It's a great, great day. Listeners, this show has been something that Mariah and I are just so excited about, because people are writing in a ton of questions, they wanna know what's going on, and we're here, and we've done the research and the writing to answer them.
Mariah:
Yes, yes.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes, we have, indeed. And I'm just so excited because I feel like every, like, what better day than Friday for these episodes to come out right before our weekend where we're answering people's real anonymous sex ed questions and getting them hopefully good answers.
Mariah:
Yeah, I really love the aspect of being able to share our like, our personal stories kind of attached to a lot of this. I mean, that's kind of I think that's why a lot of people who are sex educators who work in this field, there's a lot of personal kind of experience and stories attached to why we're here. So
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Mariah:
I know that is for me and I'm sure we'll hear a little bit more about that in this episode.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah, what are we talking about?
Mariah:
Yeah, today we're gonna talk about sex and religion. That's kind of like the overarching theme because we got a question that said, I grew up super religious and feel guilty whenever I masturbate or have sex. What do I do about this?
Danielle Bezalel:
Oof.
Mariah:
Did I write this one? I'm just kidding.
Danielle Bezalel:
did we just copy and paste what we're thinking in our own brains?
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
It's a common one, right? And I think I think that like, from what I've heard from you about this kind of thing, like it very much relates. And I think like you're, and this person, you both are not alone. This is a very unfortunately common feeling and question that we get even before we got this question in our question box, like I've definitely gotten a lot of DMs over the years, specifically around guilt, shame, religion. Like those kinds of, that's like the trifecta of usually like what it comes with. And so I'm really excited to get to talk with you about this today. But before we even get into it, I wanna shout out our bestie crew. For folks who have joined already, you will get a shout out in the next episode. So stay tuned for that. And just a reminder that this is the last episode that will be open to the public wherever you get your podcasts basically through Sex Ed with DB. And if you want to keep up with this series, if you want to potentially get your question answered on the show, go to buymeacoffee.com slash curious sex ed to learn more. Again, we have our link to our anonymous question box in there where you can write in a question that might get answered. And if you want to support us, buy us a coffee there. You totally can as a one-off thing or a two-off thing or a three-off thing. But if you want to join our bestie crew and gain access to this content exclusively on Buy Me a Coffee, again, check us out there at buymeacoffee.com slash Curious Sex Ed. And now we're gonna get into our stories and
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
what our backgrounds really are and what our religious experiences were. and are to this day. And I guess I'll kind of briefly start out by sharing, we are different religions, I am Jewish.
Mariah:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
And I kind of didn't really like grow up with like anything in mind in particular, relating Judaism to sex or to guilt, like that never really came out for me where someone or a rabbi or there was messaging for me growing up as a child that said we as Jews don't do this like I think in fact there's an argument to say like. Theoretically having sex on Shabbat which happens every Saturday is considered a mitzvah in some
Mariah:
Hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
Jewish kind of conversations and a mitzvah is usually like a good thing right it's kind
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
of like something to be celebrated which is kind of cool I mean.
Mariah:
I love that.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah, I mean, like, I like that. I also think that there it depends on like, how you kind of interpret certain things in the Torah, but a kind of fucked up thing is like, oh, like, there's something called a mikvah, which is like kind of like a pool that you like cleanse yourself in kind of sounds like you're someone's being baptized. It's kind of similar to that. But in the mikvah, in some Jewish practices, women or people with vulvas who are on their period are not supposed to go. So I think like there's something bad in my opinion about
Mariah:
Yeah,
Danielle Bezalel:
like the stigma
Mariah:
yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
around that. I don't really know why that is. I'm sure if I chatted with a rabbi or someone who really studied the Torah, maybe they would have some more insight, but just off the bat, that doesn't feel very good to hear. It feels exclusive.
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
It doesn't feel good. And so the one story though that I do wanna share, that I've told before on other podcasts and that I kind of mentioned in the first season, mostly of Sex, I Have a DB, and I'll tell an abridged version, but it does kind of have to do with religion and with Judaism and with my experience teaching English in Israel. And so the reason really why I started this podcast was a really kind of wild experience that I had. while teaching abroad in Israel and my teaching cohort went to like a really religious community for a day for a field trip.
Mariah:
Okay.
Danielle Bezalel:
And this community was kind of like orthodox Jews, which arguably is like one of the kind of most religious groups of Jewish people. They have a lot of rules they for people who don't know. Typically orthodox Jews have many children, they often. some of them don't use birth control or like don't talk about that. Some Orthodox Jews like really study the Torah, some and many have like full-time jobs and they are integrated into society, but there are some communities like this community that we visited that are very insular and very isolated from other people. And what that can really look like is like no access to the internet or no
Mariah:
Mmm...
Danielle Bezalel:
access to books. And like... you
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
know, which is bad, very bad.
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
Anywhere where they're suppressing knowledge and like not really allowing people to gain access for themselves, in my opinion, is bad. And so long story short, this main rabbi in this community was kind of showing my teaching cohort around and talking about their traditions and their, you know, their experiences there, their temple, their customs. And he kind of mentions offhand during his presentation that he has five daughters, and when each of them reach the age of 18, they're married off by the matchmaker, and they don't learn
Mariah:
Hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
about sex until their wedding night when they have it for the first time. And that they just kind of pray as a community that they get pregnant that night.
Mariah:
Hello.
Danielle Bezalel:
Oh,
Mariah:
Hello.
Danielle Bezalel:
oh, okay. And so I was like 21 at the time, so obviously there was a huge. imbalance between me and this man who is standing before us, who's one of the leaders of this community. And I was one of the only ones who kind of raised my hand and kind of challenged him in the moment. It was like, I kind of like spurted off saying like
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
a bunch of shit. I was kind of like, what if they don't want that? Or like, what about if they're not ready to be moms? Or what about their consent? Or I don't remember. Like, it happened very fast.
Mariah:
Yeah,
Danielle Bezalel:
And I was like,
Mariah:
asking
Danielle Bezalel:
very,
Mariah:
the important questions.
Danielle Bezalel:
yes, I was very physically like, hot and overwhelmed.
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
And he just kind of like, waved at me, like kind of did this gesture of like, you don't matter basically, and was like, this is how it goes here. And then we just continued the conversation. I mean, I do think after I brought that up, there was some kind of conversation around it, but I just wanna bring that up to say that like, even though my personal experience with Judaism hasn't been like fraught with kind of sadness and like suppression and like, lack of education and access when it comes to sex ed, like clearly these five women are experiencing
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
that and many other women in these extreme religious communities and none, you know, like even just if they're in everyday public school, like this is the kind of stuff that shows up across the country no matter what community you're in. And so that's kind of my experience as a Jew.
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
And just kind of wanted to share, you know, like, ultimately as a Jew, I do feel empowered in my like, sexual... kind of identity and in my relationship and have never felt like, oh, I need to wait till marriage to have sex, that was never something that came up.
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
But it's very complicated. And so I wanted to start with that story.
Mariah:
Yeah, I love that. It's my first time learning this about you. I love, thank you for sharing that.
Danielle Bezalel:
Of course.
Mariah:
It's so interesting. It's like you have a whole other life teaching English and...
Danielle Bezalel:
I know, I know, that was right after college.
Mariah:
That's so cool.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah.
Mariah:
Yeah, I feel like a lot of people might have, I mean, when we talk about religion, we really can't use these blanket statements and experiences. I have a tendency to sometimes do that, I think,
Danielle Bezalel:
It's hard.
Mariah:
because I'm, yeah, I'm still relearning. I'm still kind of figuring my shit out. But yeah, it is complicated. I feel like a lot of people who grow up in maybe a specific culture or with a specific religion, there's always gonna come a time where people are maybe challenging someone, asking themselves questions, or at least hopefully like you get to that place. It's important. Yeah, I grew up Christian. That's kind of like my background. And there was a lot of sexual shame
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm.
Mariah:
and guilt because of purity culture, which is essentially like this. understanding sex as something that is sacred between a man and a woman and only really allowed with the permission of God and with marriage. And so with that being like the ultimate goal, there's a lot of discomfort and shame and disconnection when you're living your life and you have a human body and you feel like you don't really own it. Like it doesn't really belong to you because it's only going to be used for this one thing. That's kind of like how I can describe it. That's kind of how it felt. Otherwise you'd be sinning, you'd be impured, you'd be doing something bad. So of course, like pleasure was never mentioned or a part of my experience growing up is something that I could do or enjoy, anything like that.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah.
Mariah:
It's like, I think... We also had weird names for body parts. You know, like all these little things kind of contribute to this pressure.
Danielle Bezalel:
Shame, yeah.
Mariah:
Yeah, shame and pressure that people face in terms of this purity culture thing. Like, I don't know, we called our private parts like pee-pee and kwee-kwee. Now
Danielle Bezalel:
Oh.
Mariah:
that I think about them, I'm like, what are these words?
Danielle Bezalel:
Like, what's going on here? Yeah, like, where did this come
Mariah:
Yeah,
Danielle Bezalel:
from?
Mariah:
like what even is that? How do you even spell that?
Danielle Bezalel:
Right. Yeah,
Mariah:
Um...
Danielle Bezalel:
because parents aren't taught to do it either. Right. Like,
Mariah:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
I feel like obviously, like, there's no excuses. Like, they could have kind of broken the cycle. And, you know, there are some parents who really do this super well. And our parents, I'm sure, like did what they thought was best for us. Right. And
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
like whether they did or didn't talk about certain things. And so. I really think that it's important for us to kind of give our like elders and parents and aunts and uncles and whoever kind of was in the picture for us a little bit of grace.
Mariah:
Totally.
Danielle Bezalel:
And at the same time, like just expect a little more from people now that we know kind of what's going on.
Mariah:
Yeah, yeah, I feel like the older I get, the more I feel that for sure. Because it's hard. It's really, really hard. I know, like, especially for my parents, they had, what, four or five kids? I don't even know. Like, just so many frickin' kids at my age now. Like, I'm almost 30 and they are raising a whole ass family. So
Danielle Bezalel:
bright.
Mariah:
I definitely have grace in that sense.
Danielle Bezalel:
Bye.
Mariah:
I think what is the most kind of difficult is kind of growing up and having to relearn all of this stuff and kind of become, I don't know, kind of free from this feeling of being trapped by strict rules and expectations
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm.
Mariah:
and like minimization of pain in the Christian church, AKA just like, just pray about it. It'll be fine, just go to God or like,
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Mariah:
so there wasn't really room for expressiveness, emotions, pleasure, any of that. Yeah, I think when thinking about this question, that guilt is very real. That's kind of a hard thing to, I think, reckon with when you maybe hold certain values and beliefs, or that's maybe all you know, and how can you feel, I don't know, sexually liberated if that's what you want. I think what I always come back to now, or I guess my mantra, I don't know, is... This is my body and it deserves to feel pleasure.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Mariah:
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Danielle Bezalel:
I'm gonna cry. It's like, so it's so simple, but it's just like a really healing sentence. And I like the way you said it. It's my mantra, right? Like it needs to be repeated and really internalized. And it's really similar to I imagine how some folks including myself feel around body image, like,
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
we're constantly taught that we are ugly, the media is telling us we need to buy something to fix ourselves. And like, what would happen if we worked really hard? And again, it's not this easy, but this is one simple part of it, to look in the mirror and just say what you love about yourself and like really think to yourself, like, this is my body, I deserve happiness, I deserve pleasure
Mariah:
And,
Danielle Bezalel:
and there's nothing wrong with that. Like that's really, it's a powerful thing.
Mariah:
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And you also deserve to know everything about your body. That's like,
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm.
Mariah:
your period doesn't need to be hidden or, you know, like, you deserve to know the names of your body parts. Like all
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes.
Mariah:
of that.
Danielle Bezalel:
Totally. And so when it comes to like, you know, actual tactics or like figuring out how we can actively work to do what this person is asking, right, which is like, how do
Mariah:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
We combat the shame and guilt when it comes to pleasure and sex that might have, you know, come from religion, or it can, you know, come from other places too. And I think that it's equally applicable..
Mariah:
Yeah, I always think it's helpful to just kind of like, anytime we're talking about sex, any of these questions, it really comes down to like explore and evaluate your values and what you want. What do you personally believe? What do you want for yourself? I think understanding your own values and beliefs can really help you have a deeper and maybe more nuanced understanding of your sexuality, your identity, your pleasure. your relationships, and of course, the extra support in life is really necessary. We always kind of refer back to get support from someone you trust because that's a big part of this. The first step is kind of evaluating what you want and then having people in your life who can support you to get to that place.
Danielle Bezalel:
Absolutely. Yeah. And like, you know, we've mentioned this on a previous episode about porn addiction. But if you're someone who really, really enjoys the relationship that you have with your mental health therapist, or you want to explore sex therapy, or, you know, different ways that you can kind of discuss some of these things with someone who is a professional, like, we really encourage you to figure out who that might be for you, because there's a whole relationship to explore with your own body and with yourself and the way that you view yourself and your pleasure. And sometimes it's really helpful to be guided by somebody who's a professional in that work.
Mariah:
Yeah, there's really not even enough time to, I think, answer this question or dissect it beyond like, kind of starting with our personal experiences. I mean, we could talk about this more because there's just so much I mean, it's really a journey, right? All of this is there's no endpoint or end goal, I think, like an ultimate end goal. But yeah, whoever asked this question, I definitely encourage you to kind of seek out maybe education or resources that are coming from a shame-free, any positive, or sex-positive perspective so that, I don't know, you can fully embrace yourself and the information, whatever it might be, that I think that can really take off the pressure.
Danielle Bezalel:
And like, be patient, right? Like, this is not like an overnight kind of quote unquote fix
Mariah:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
or like learning. There's a lot of unlearning that needs to happen. And I know for myself, like, just hearing like Evian Whitney talk about like sensuality and being in their body and just
Mariah:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
like different people who I really admire who talk about being in their body and yeah, like what it could look like to kind of like unravel that sexual shame and guilt and how to really kind of like think through that and start to heal in some ways is very powerful. And I just want to kind of share some final thoughts and some some people who I want to shout out who I think could really help you listener like learn more about this topic is I'm going to shout out to sex ed with DB episodes because they're actually I don't even need to shout them out there two of our most downloaded episodes. So I think people are really gravitating towards this topic anyway. But I want to share the first is Reverend Reverend pleasure.
Mariah:
Oh.
Danielle Bezalel:
And Reverend Pleasure is a movement chaplain working to create a culture of sanctity, pleasure and wholeness, specifically for black femmes, girls and women. And she also works with individuals and communities to heal trauma as a result of patriarchal and religious violence. And so you can search Sex Out with DB, Reverend Pleasure, wherever you get your podcasts. And then I also wanna shout out an amazing guest I had more recently, Angelica Lindsay Ali, AKA the Village Auntie. And Angelica Lindsay Ali is a certified sexual health educator, public health professional, and authority on intimacy and emotional well being. And she's the founder of the Village Auntie Institute, which is a global platform for women's learning. And you can find her on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at Village Auntie, that's A-U-N-T-I-E. And you can listen to our episode wherever you get your podcasts.
Mariah:
Love that. Thank you for sharing.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah.
Mariah:
On social media, there's two great people. One, Erica Smith, which is at erikasmith.sex.ed. That's on Instagram and TikTok. And then Dr. Laura Anderson, which is at Dr. Laura Anderson on Instagram and TikTok. Some
Danielle Bezalel:
Yeah,
Mariah:
other great resources.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mariah, I'm just so excited to keep exploring these topics with you. I'm so thrilled that you're my partner for Curious Sex Ed. There's no one I learn more from and I just feel like you have so much grace and like empathy for people and their experiences. So I just wanna say thank you for doing this with me.
Mariah:
That's so sweet. Thank you. I feel the same way about you. I feel like this is definitely pushing me out of my comfort zone. And it's nice to have real conversations about these things. Sometimes it's hard to do this just on a camera and posting it online and like not have someone to actually engage in conversation with. So this is great.
Danielle Bezalel:
Totally. Absolutely. And listener, thank you so much for engaging with these first three episodes. Just a reminder, if you wanna continue to hear these episodes with me and Mariah for Curious Sex Ed, go to buymeacoffee.com slash Curious Sex Ed to join our bestie crew. And we hope to see you there.