Season 8, episode 4: What Wellness For Moms Actually Looks Like with Be Well, Sis Podcast Cost
DR. CASSANDRE DUNBAR
Danielle Bezalel (she/her):
Dr. Cassandra Dunbar, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
Cassandre Dunbar (she/her):
I'm good, how are you?
Danielle Bezalel:
I'm so good. I really like our new friendship. And
Cassandre Dunbar:
Me too.
Danielle Bezalel:
so I'm very excited. You know, we met recently. And I feel like we've had a couple meetings since and I feel like from the get go, I just really, really liked your energy and thought you were very fun and kind and just like a really cool person to know. And so I'm really excited to just talk to you and get to know you better today.
Cassandre Dunbar:
same mutual. I feel like from the beginning you're like my type of person. Just like yes, this is good. This is good.
Danielle Bezalel:
Oh, this is good. Yeah, I feel like it's harder to make new friends and colleagues as you get older and older, it's easier to kind of just, you know, like stay in your little bubble. But
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
when you meet someone who you vibe with and who you share values and kind of goals in the space of sexual health and wellness, it can be really cool and just really neat to make those new connections.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah, really refreshing. Cause like you said, we stay in the same little bubbles and I've been trying to be intentional about meeting new people. And I'm just so happy that like our paths cross and yeah, we're friends. Now we're locked in girl.
Danielle Bezalel:
Same. Locked in. Okay, so for folks listening who haven't had the pleasure of meeting you yet, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and just tell us about your work.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Sure. So my name is Cassandra Dunbar. I usually don't say the doctor part unless you're like my student or whatever. I am a podcast host. I'm a professor. I am a mother, a wife, all of those things. And I'm sorry, how deep do you want me to go into the intro? How deep do you want me?
Danielle Bezalel:
however you want, whatever feels good, whatever feels good for you.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Um... Yeah, so I think that was it. Like I'm a wife, I'm a mother, professor, I'm a podcast host. Yeah, and I'm just really passionate, I guess you'd say, about women's wellness, specifically marginalized women's wellness. And I'm just happy to be here. So that's me.
Danielle Bezalel:
Incredible. Yeah, yeah. And your podcast that you host is called Be Well, Sis. And that's originally how I heard about you how I, you know, just knew about your work and about your work, at least as a podcast host to begin with, let alone all of these other identities
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
that you hold, which we'll touch on a little bit later. But I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about the podcast, what inspired you to create it? And what have you learned as the founder of this really amazing podcasting community?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah, so starting Be Well, Sis was something that I did not ever anticipate doing. The reason I started it was out of a challenge that my therapist gave me because long story short, I was very burnt out. I had just had my second son and the pregnancy was benign, nothing to talk about. but the delivery was traumatic. We both almost didn't make it. And I remember the first few months of having him and when he finally came in from the hospital, I was so grateful to have him, so grateful to have my older son, so grateful to be here, kind of, sort of. But my days were filled with like doctor's appointments and seeing this specialist and that specialist and still trying to be present for my older son because it's a transition from being an only child to now sharing your time and attention with your sibling.
Danielle Bezalel:
right in your toys.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, that too. And I just found myself just really burnt out in my doula who I had for my second. She kept in touch with me and she called me and she was just trying to catch up and she was like, you don't sound the same. She's like, can you do me a favor and go back and see your therapist again? I'm just like, you know, for you I will. So I bought back and my therapist was asking what I do for myself. Like she said, run me through your day. So I told her all the things that I do from morning to night. And she's like, where are you in this? I'm just like, well, I'm doing all this. She's like, no, no, no. Like that's you as a mom. That's you as a wife, you as a daughter. My mom lives with us. Um, but she's like, where are you? So she said, going back to the notes that she's had of me, um, cause I had been her patient prior to getting pregnant. And she was like, at one point you want to start a podcast. How about you? you know, spend some time doing the research to do that. That way you give yourself time to do something just for yourself. So I did. And just in speaking to different women that I got a chance to speak to through the podcast was so healing for me in a way that I just did not anticipate. So the reason I launched the podcast was not only for my own self care, but really because when I was looking for how to bridge the gap between being healthy and actually being well, I did not see myself represented in those spaces. I'm like, I cannot be the only black woman who's looking for wellness resources. So I decided to put the podcast together and here we are, be well, sis.
Danielle Bezalel:
Wow, wow, wow. Okay, so you must have a very good therapist, first of all, to
Cassandre Dunbar:
I do, I love her.
Danielle Bezalel:
like, yeah, to inspire you to really reflect on, and that's a powerful exercise, right? If like, let's go through your day and figure out what you're doing for yourself. And that kind of really beautifully goes into my next question, which is, you know, when you're introducing yourself, I noticed you just being like, oh, like, what do I even say for my introduction? And that's because you're so many things, right? Like you're a mother of two young boys, a medical doctor, a wife, an educator, a wellness writer and the host of a podcast. That's basically a million things, right? It's
like a lot of stuff. You're clearly a very expert kind of person who likes to wear many hats. And like the first word that came to mind for me when I was reading about you and all of your titles and identities on your website was just wow, that was just the first word that came to mind. And I just wonder how it feels wearing all of these hats and how these identities play off of one another or conflict or what the challenges of that are.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Sometimes, right now I'm in the season where I feel like I'm kind of spread thin. And I'm happy that I've made the realization that I'm doing a lot of things and I need to figure out what is the thing or in which way can I like better meld these things. Because they kind of do, they overlap a lot. I talk about the same things in different ways essentially into different audiences. So the challenge has been figuring out as somebody who has a lot of passions and different interests, how to now wear myself out and also how to do things well. I like to do things, but I want to do them well. And doing things well takes time, takes energy and we only have 24 hours a day. So just trying to figure out how to better balance all of the things that I want to do.
Danielle Bezalel:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I can't even imagine what that's like when you have, like, a full-time job at the same time that you're taking care of two young kids. And if your partner's working, like there's, it seems like very overwhelming to be especially after the traumatic birth story that you shared and how long I imagine it must take to just get back to zero, right?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
Like there's so much that goes into that and so much emotional labor and like physicality to that and mental strength and persistence and patience, I'm sure that's needed in order to feel like yourself again. Can you talk us through a little bit about what that was like for you?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Oh, for sure. I feel like for most women, most people who have babies, it takes roughly a year and a half to feel like yourself again. I felt that with my first son and in speaking to different people, they felt the same thing. Like around when the child hits around two, it's like, oh, okay, I'm me again.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
For my second, because of the things that were just happening and how much of what was happening with him was also happening to me in a way, just having to see the different specialists and just being really nervous about what would his life and therefore our life look like. I had to do a lot of work and also it took me time to forgive my body. I didn't realize I was mad at my body. I felt like my body failed me. Um, and I had to really process that because what happened was during the labor and delivery, my placenta detached early, so I have placental abruption. And I was, I didn't realize I was really harboring some resentment. Like, how dare you like fail us like this? And it took me time and I was very depressed and it took me. time and guidance to like realize that I was experiencing these things. And also that impacted my relationship with my husband. Um, as you can imagine, a lot of us, when we are depressed, like there is no libido, like the last thing I'm thinking about is sex. Um, and not only like my physical healing, like my body was different. Um, but also just like mentally, I just was not there. Um, so the person that I was beforehand, um, sexually was not the same person. And it took. At some point he internalized that and thinking that, you know, something had changed with him. And it's like, it's not you, because we both had gained weight. And it's, I'm like, it's not you. Like, I'm still attracted to you, but I'm just mentally not thinking about that at all. And even when I would show up, because I feel like I was unfortunately having like, essentially like pity sex. Like I felt bad for him. Like he shouldn't have to suffer because I'm suffering.
Danielle Bezalel:
Totally.
Cassandre Dunbar:
when I would show up, I just was just there. And he's like, well, this is not fun. Like, this is not you. So it took time.
Danielle Bezalel:
right? Yeah, I feel like we really don't talk about the nuances like these ebbs and flows in a monogamous relationship when it comes to sex and like the ways that we connect or don't connect or can't connect with our partner depending on how we're missing connection with ourselves. And this idea of like pity sex, right? Like there there definitely are these gray areas that we just don't touch on that like, yeah, well, we want our partner. feel good and we want them to feel like we're paying attention to them, even if we're not really in the mood.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
That is a very real thing that a lot of people go through. Intimacy is not this black and white thing where, oh,
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
all of a sudden both people are exactly right in the mood. There's
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
going to be non-concordance
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
and just all of these different feelings at different times. especially after a baby is born and like literally like your hormones and your mental state is just different than it
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
was before. And there are chemical differences that we
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, yes, for sure, for sure.
Danielle Bezalel:
need to address.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And I think even just to even add another layer of just being together with the same partner for a long time, those ebbs and flows like are so real and we don't talk about it. And I think each person in the relationship might start to feel like they internalize that as being because of them. But it's not, it's really important to talk. And I think when we talk about intimacy too, it needs to be not just the physical intimacy, but that emotional intimacy needs to be present so that I needed that to like talk to him and be like, this is what's going on in my head.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Cause I keep things to myself. So I had to say to him, this is going on in my head and in my heart, and I love you, I'm attracted to you, but my body is just not with it right now.
Danielle Bezalel:
It's just on
Cassandre Dunbar:
And
Danielle Bezalel:
pause right now.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Right, right. And I will do my best. But he was like, do your best. He's just like, nobody, and he's like, I don't want the pity sex. Like, you take your time and when you're ready,
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
I'll be here. But I don't want, he's like, that doesn't feel good to me
Danielle Bezalel:
Right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
for you to feel like you're obligated to have sex with me. So.
Danielle Bezalel:
Totally. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I wonder if we can go back a little bit, back to Be Well CIS, right? And this whole idea of like, specifically for you, it was part of your mission to find resources and talk to people about black women's wellness, right?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
And I wonder if we could just dig into the word wellness for a moment, because again, when I was kind of reading about you and just checking out your website and reading your resources, you mentioned that in doing your own research, you learned that there was a really big gap between what you learned in med school and what it truly means to be well, right? Like there's this
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
dichotomy and I wonder if you can expand on this a little bit. Like what does wellness feel like and actually look like to you?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah, so I spent time in medical school where we focused on health and not even so much so health, but really on disease. So we've learned the ins and outs of different diseases, what they look like, how to treat them and things of that nature. But we, one of my gripes of Western medicine, is that Western medicine focuses on the disease process and not on the entire being.
Danielle Bezalel:
Holistically, right?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Exactly. So what I've learned is that wellness is more than just being healthy, because you can be physically healthy. Like your blood pressure is great, your blood sugar is great, you don't have any like overt anything happening, but you could feel really, really not great about your life, you know? Not necessarily that you're depressed even, but just like you're just here, you're just existing. And I believe that we all are on this earth and we all should be living. like our best lives and it sounds so cliche, but whatever feels good to you, whatever brings you the most joy, whatever brings you the most peace, you should be experiencing that. And for me, I find that wellness involves unlearning a lot of the things that we were taught as children. Like what does success really look like for you? Not what they say it should be, but what's your personal success?
Danielle Bezalel:
Right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
What makes you feel happy and whole? Some people are 5 a.m. People that's great, but doesn't mean that you need to be a 5 a.m. Person, too, you know, just
Danielle Bezalel:
Right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Wellness is really personal essentially and also wellness in our state in the US has really been commodified and it looks like you have to spend money to be well and buy the most expensive things and be part of the most exclusive clubs and
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
take the best classes and all of that. No, you don't have to do any of those things to be well. If those things impact your wellness and help you feel better, do it. But those are not requirements for you to be well.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes, yeah, I really like this touch upon capitalism, especially in our Instagram ad era that we're in of like, just buy this fucking cream and then you'll
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes.
Danielle Bezalel:
be so happy and you won't have a blemish. And it's like, yeah, like, I mean, I relate to this idea. Like for me, I've struggled with acne like my whole life starting
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
since puberty and have been on and off, you know, these really intense medications, Accutane. you know, hormonal birth control to kind of like really deal with it. And for me, like my confidence has really improved with better skin because it like physically doesn't hurt my face. And I just really like the smoothness and the texture better for me. It makes me happier. And I do think it's kind of this this tricky line where we have to be really careful about, OK, am I internalizing those things? Because, you know. of the messages that I'm receiving about beauty and about the people who get to be seen? Or is it really like, no, like this is just for me, like I want to feel
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
confident, I want to feel happy. Are there any ways that you can think about or recommend that people think about how to kind of like think about that line and think critically about that?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, I think for me, I've been asking myself why a lot, like this internally, so, but why, but why, but why? So being really transparent with you since the pandemic, so. That first year of the pandemic, I gained like a solid 35 pounds. So, and I have not lost it.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And I just have, for a long time, I was like, struggling with my new body, how I look and everything. And I'm just like, well, why do I feel this way? Like I'm still quote healthy, you know, like I'm always conscious because I have blood pressure and things like that, but in my family, so I'm just like, okay, so my cholesterol is still fine, my blood sugar is still fine, but everything is fine, right, on paper.
Danielle Bezalel:
your numbers.
Cassandre Dunbar:
My numbers are good, okay? So why do I feel the need to be in this rush to lose this weight and then some? And in full transparency, I have always been on a diet, I haven't been on a diet recently, but from the time I could remember, maybe like 10? I was just
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
on a diet perpetually. And looking back on pictures, I was thin. And I was, I remember constantly feeling like I was just too big. And fast forward to now, when I'm thinking about my body. Remember how I told you I was mad at my body for like failing
Danielle Bezalel:
Right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
me? Now it's like, I thank her. Like I put on this weight through the pandemic because we are going through a pandemic and I coped with food. Thank you for being there for me, you know?
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
So it takes. asking myself and asking ourselves questions as to what our motivations are. And I think you've done that with your skincare. Like what is your motivation? Is it for yourself or is it for the outward gaze? So
Danielle Bezalel:
right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
asking ourselves those uncomfortable questions because it might be because of the outward gaze. And I'll be honest, part of it is because I like to dress a certain way and I don't want to be, I guess ridiculed for how I dress in my new body. But like.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Nobody's thinking about me anyway, like, you know? Like...
Danielle Bezalel:
No, but this is very, very real. And I think like, body image is something that in general, we're very passionate about, like we make a lot of content about that. And a lot of the content that I kind of create about it is like, silly and humorous in order to kind of disarm people because it can be a very touchy subject. And for everybody, everyone has their, their hang ups and their different relationships with their body and and food and diets and I just think that the more and more we think about why, and we think about ways that we can put effort and energy into working to accept the things that maybe we even don't like or are struggling about ourselves, right? Like when you're on your deathbed, are you gonna be thinking like, I wish I was two sizes smaller in these jeans? Like, no, you're gonna be thinking about like. the relationships that you had that were really meaningful and the impact that you make on the world and what you did that made you happy and the places you saw and the people you met and your growth and like there are so many different ways to measure success and to measure happiness and joy. And I just really believe that the size that you are isn't. part of that. And it
Cassandre Dunbar:
Right?
Danielle Bezalel:
and it makes me happy to now finally, we're seeing, you know, whether it's body neutrality or body positivity, either one, you know, just, we have bodies and like, we should learn in like a real way to just accept it for what it is.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, yes. And even the next step is to really truly love it because one of the things that I teach my students, I'm a professor of anatomy and physiology. So sometimes I'm a teach people who are just taking the class just to fill the prerequisite. And I'm
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
like, the one thing that I want you to take away from this is that you have millions of cells who are working every day to keep you. So I
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
want you to leave this class just feeling. Um, just in more appreciation of your body and really love it for that. Cause it's, it's been preserving you.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm, it's working hard.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, working very hard. And I still tell myself that I'm like, you know, my body worked hard throughout all of the uncertainty of this past few years to just keep me here. So be kind to it. And before I used to be like an exercise person and I told myself that I loved it, but really I didn't. I loved the results and how I looked, but I would put myself through some unhealthy things. And now I'm looking at myself and now when I... decide to move my body, I'm doing it because I want it, I want to love it back, you know, because I'm getting older, so you know, I wake up with the stiffness, but I'm like, no, let me, how do
Danielle Bezalel:
Right.
Cassandre Dunbar:
I love on you? Let me stretch a little bit. Let me go for a
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
walk. So yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
I feel that, yeah, recently I started renting a Peloton because they're just super fun, like really, really exciting classes to me. And I look forward to exercising now. And I think that they make it really accessible and make me feel like I'm gonna have like a dance party and just like laugh and be silly, like while listening to this fun instructor for 20 minutes, right? It's just like a really tangible way to feel like I can move my body. And I just like how it makes me feel like I like how it like makes my mood better throughout the day and just makes me feel like stronger. And I think when we find a way to move our body that feels good to us, it doesn't feel as much of a chore. And
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes.
Danielle Bezalel:
maybe sometimes it does, but hopefully it feels more like a pleasure than something that's an obligation.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Exactly, exactly. I think for me who's like a child of like diet culture, right? I was
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes.
Cassandre Dunbar:
raised in constantly being on a diet and just exercising to like punish ourselves for what we ate
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
or what we whatever earlier. I love that approach. I think a lot of us are thinking about that now, you know, like, let's do something that brings us joy and not to punish ourselves for what we ate or didn't. earlier.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Let's get back a little bit to moms, because on this podcast, surprisingly, even though we we do cover kind of like, you know, like pregnancy stuff, like my mom is an OBGYN, and we have her on every season. And she usually goes over the pregnancy, like kind of new mom type of thing, or new birthing person kind of thing. But I'd love for us to really kind of dig into this idea of wellness for moms in particular, because, you know, we're at the point where there's a lot of research, and like, you know, studies, where we see that in straight relationships, like straight cis relationships, moms take on a majority of the child caring, the keeping of the house, and so much of the emotional labor and more, right? Like, we just know this, like, they're like, look it up, Google it, if you're skeptical. we just know and this was especially apparent during the pandemic when moms were homeschooling their kids while they were still working while they're still coordinating everything. And you know, I think like, at the same time, moms are supposed to be able to find time for wellness and self care. There's all this kind of emphasis on like, hey, you know, like you just need to do you and like really find that time to relax and go get a massage. And it's like, Yeah, go get a massage like when hell freezes over. Like I don't have fucking time to do that. Like
Cassandre Dunbar:
Right.
Danielle Bezalel:
that I have, you know, there are kids involved. There's a lot of coordination for activities. If you're working, it's just I, I'm not a mom, I would like to be a mom, eventually. But
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
I just know for moms, this is kind of like a losing battle. And we're taught like, well, you're just not making time for it.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Right.
Danielle Bezalel:
And I wonder if you could just talk about this a little bit.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it all boils down to, again, the expectation and how we were raised, like, whether it is overtly as a woman or, like, you know, under, like, slightly, like subtly, like, we're all taught that our worth as a woman is how much we can provide to those around us and nurture those around us.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And that's amplified when we then have children. I absolutely struggled with this for a while. And if I'm being really honest, I think maybe in the last year I really am like, you know what, this is what is going to work for me. Like I am going to be a good mom because I'm trying my hardest. I'm not going to be able to check off all the boxes and that's okay.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And... really for me, the emotional labor piece was like about to end my marriage. I'm just like, you do not have
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
to think I'm constantly thinking I'm sick of thinking. And
Danielle Bezalel:
Mmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
I had to be honest and talk to him like, listen, all the things I've met the project manager of his house, I can't, like,
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes.
Cassandre Dunbar:
I cannot do it. So I had to be really honest and open and have that conversation like I need help. You are not helping enough. And there's these are the tangible ways that you can help me so that way I can help myself and in helping myself You guys will all be happier for it
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
So the guilt I get and if somebody is listening and struggling with the guilt start with asking yourself What do you need right now? So what is the one thing that you can use right now? Whether it is maybe a nap whether it is a babysitter whether it is a massage and do that one thing coordinate with your village and see if you can make that happen. Take advantage of that, because I realize that there are people who genuinely want to help me, but don't know how. So figure out how other people can help me so that way I can help myself. It's super, super important to make that time for yourself as a mother. Forget that, as a woman, just take the time to take care of yourself, because you'll just be better for it. It's gonna feel uncomfortable in the beginning, like, ooh, I feel selfish. How, you know, I could spend that money on other things. That's something that I'm always doing, like, well, I can get my nails done, but I could buy the kids whatever. It can go towards whatever that we're saving for them. But. The happier you are, the healthier you are, the more well you are, that trickles into the rest of the household. So if you are struggling with thinking about doing this for yourself for, quote, selfish reasons, think about how blessing yourself is gonna bless the ones around you.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes, absolutely. And like people are lucky to have you right? Like there's this like you said, there's this expectation, specifically on moms that okay, like, mom is the one who's going to remember like what I want for my birthday, right? And like, they're all these little things. And I saw this really, really illuminating TikTok video about the word kin keeping, which is kind of when you think about like mostly women like cis women. in these family structures, when there are, you know, sorry, my cat is like right here. Mostly women in these family structures, they are the ones who during holidays, they're the ones who are cooking, and they're
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
the ones who are setting the table and cleaning before everyone comes and they're picking up the sides, right? Like, maybe dad. in this relationship is doing the turkey, right? Or
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
maybe they're going to the grocery store and picking up something extra. And then they're like on their phone, like most of the time, like
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
during the dinner and after and this is just, you know, not to stereotype, like if this isn't your family, then that's great. But I do think that this is a lot of people's experiences.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yep.
Danielle Bezalel:
And just this idea that, like, mom not only is the one who's doing more of the work, but who's getting more scrutiny, right? Like, kids get more annoyed with their moms than they do their dads. And like, I just like, you know, and I feel for moms, I feel like they, again, like they do a lion's share of the emotional and like, mental work and coordinating and thinking, as you said, and logistic-ing.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
And they're the ones that, you know, when they fuck up or when they don't do it right exactly
Cassandre Dunbar:
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Bezalel:
right. They're the ones who like get shat on and it's just
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah.
Danielle Bezalel:
like, kind of terrible that you know, like no mom, you know, again, this is a huge stereotype and over generalization. But I do think it's it's hard. It's hard because that is a lot of people's realities.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yeah, it is. And I think for me, one of the reasons why I have been so diligent about making time for therapy is because I realized that the better I am, the better of a model that I can be for my kids. And also like with the family dynamic. So I have two boys and I am hell bent on raising boys who are going to carry their fucking weight. Um, you are not going to, whoever your partner ends up being, I don't want you to like expect them to mother you. Okay. I want you to be.
Danielle Bezalel:
Like they're not cleaning up after you.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Absolutely not. You are going to be an equal participant sidebar. So my son, I was telling him he, I made him do like some extra reading or something.
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes.
Cassandre Dunbar:
He just, it was during the summertime and he just like, why am I doing my work during summertime? Just like, because like. it's good for you. Like you're going to be a scholar one day. And he's just like, well, I'm not even going to have a job one day. I'm going to be a stay at home dad. I'm just like, that is excellent. So let me tell you something. You're about to be the best day at home dad to ever do it. Like you're going to know all the ins and outs of everything. So, um, but yeah, so I think for me being in therapy has helped me to just be vocal and, um, to shift the dynamic in the house a little bit. Cause again, I am raising boys and I just do not want bump on the logs. as my voice. I want them to like be able to carry their weight and then some around the
Danielle Bezalel:
Yes.
Cassandre Dunbar:
house. So in me being open and honest with my partner about what I need him to do and
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
how I need him to step up, not only is he being an example to them who are there constantly watching him, but also me advocating for myself is also helpful for them to see as kids.
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. This has been such an enlightening and amazing conversation. I think like originally, you know, I was kind of like, oh, you know, we're gonna talk about x, y, and z. And it kind of like shifted into this really, really honest, amazing conversation about like bodies and moming. I
Cassandre Dunbar:
Of course.
Danielle Bezalel:
really, really love it. And I'm so appreciative of you for being here for it. And I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about what's next for you and where people can find you. And maybe if you want to share, you know, like, oh, you know, if you if you had a recent be well sis episode that you really recommend that people tune into after they listen to this conversation.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, yes. So the most recent episode on Be Well says that I really enjoyed, it's actually two, they're kind of back to back. One was about emotional wellness. So the woman that I spoke to, she, I think Ashley Wright is her name. She is a founder of a tech company that teaches social, emotional wellness for children. So different, I guess I school systems by the program and it just teaches kids social emotional wellness and well-being. And it made us talk, the conversation delved into how we were not necessarily taught that. And we are now as adults having to learn how to identify our feelings and then communicate those feelings properly and get an idea out of it. But it was really, really interesting, really good conversation and just helped me as a parent definitely focus. place more emphasis on that in my household. I think I have been just because of my own
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
therapy journey. But I think even more so just some tools and tips on how to just to
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
talk to teach the children and reach them at their level was really helpful. And then the other one was about that I really enjoyed too. It was about the author of Can We Please
Danielle Bezalel:
Mm-hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Get Grandma's To take over the police station, I think it's something like that. I butchered the title.
Danielle Bezalel:
Can we please give the police department to the grandmothers?
Cassandre Dunbar:
Yes, there we go. So I spoke to Janata Petrus and she's the author of this book. And the, the book is just to inspire children to reimagine a more positive future and it also in speaking to her. had me think about how I can not only foster that in my kids, like creativity and imagination, but also for myself as an adult, you know, we don't daydream enough as adults, like there's always something to do.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And just re-imagining our own lives. And I just, for me, it's like really, it was current for me because I'm just re-imagining like, is this what I want? Is this... Feeling like I have quote made it like am I happy here if I had to relive these days over and over and over again until I die what I what I go on feeling like accomplished or good about my time here on earth. So it just helped me to just really take things into consideration and just to reimagine what the possibilities can be. So those are my two favorite episodes on Be Well Sis. And what is next for us? So I'm just going to continue to have inspiring, uplifting conversation with amazing women and The next thing that we are going to do, we'll have a small little pause this summer and then come back with a little bit of a revamp.
Danielle Bezalel:
fun.
Cassandre Dunbar:
And yes, so fun. Writing a new segment. I'm really excited about it. And just our membership community. So just continuing to grow our membership and for a place for women to like find their tribe essentially and just to encourage each other to pursue what really makes life good.
Danielle Bezalel:
Hmm, that's really special.
Cassandre Dunbar:
I'm sorry.
Danielle Bezalel:
And where can folks find you on their podcasting apps and on social?
Cassandre Dunbar:
So on the podcasting app we are at Bewell Sis the podcast so on every On every streaming platform then on what on Instagram we are at bewellsis underscore podcast I'm barely on Twitter, but we're also at bewellsis
Danielle Bezalel:
Amazing. Thank you, Cass, so much for being here. It's been so wonderful and so just organic and lovely to chat with you. And I'm so excited for people to hear you. So thank you.
Cassandre Dunbar:
Thank you, thanks for having me, appreciate it.