Kink and Pleasure with "Superfreaks" Author

ARIELLE GREENBERG

0:00:00 - Danielle Bezalel

Arielle, hello, how are you doing? 

0:06:07 - Arielle Greenberg

I'm good, how are you? 

0:06:09 - Danielle Bezalel

I'm great Welcome to SEX ED with DB. Thanks so much for having me. It's my pleasure. I was so excited to be reached out to by your folks on your team because you recently wrote a book, and I'm very, very excited to use that book as kind of the anchor for us here in this episode and to learn all about kink today. So I'm really, really grateful that you're here. I think our audience is very kink-curious and kink-positive, and so I'm sure they would be thrilled just as I am to learn from an expert. 

0:06:50 - Arielle Greenberg

Thank you. I hope I am expert enough. I will say that I am a researcher really, And some of this book is personal experience. A lot of it is things I've learned from years in the kink community, and there's a lot of research as well. 

0:07:07 - Danielle Bezalel

We love research. We are a science-backed podcast. It is very important to us to have some rigorous research behind the things that we're talking about here. So that's great. We're really happy to have you. And why don't we go ahead and get started? Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what you do and, a little bit, maybe you want to share the title of your book And how did you get into this field? 

0:07:29 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, so my name is Arielle Greenberg and the field I'm in really is literature. I have an MFA in creative writing. I've taught creative writing to undergrad and graduate students for over 20 years, so I'm an academic and I'm a writer And most of my previous books were poetry or literary nonfiction. But this book is nonfiction. I mean I hope it's still kind of literary and good to read. I think I can't help myself because I was trained as a poet. But this is a book, you know, for everybody who's interested in finding out more about kink. It's. 

My book is called Super Freaks: Kink, Pleasure, and the Pursuit of Happiness, and it has that title for a number of reasons. One is that it's meant to be a really fun book and the chapters are all titled after song lyrics, really into music, and so Super Freaks, of course, is a nod to Rick James, but also this idea of like being freaky in your sexuality can be super right, can be really fun and delightful and joyful and nourishing, and also that those of us who have a kinky sexual orientation are sort of like superheroes, because we sometimes have this kind of secret double life and superpowers in this way. So the tone of that title I hope gives a sense that the book is really upbeat and positive and joyful and encourages other people to sort of celebrate their non-normative sexualities as well. I have written about gender and sex my whole writing career, definitely identify as a sex positive feminist And I edited a series on The Rumpus for a number of years. 

That was in which I invited writers who identify as kinky literary writers poets, essayists, fiction writers, novelists, erotica writers to write about how their kink, their personal kinks and their writing practice overlapped which was a super fun series to do And was great to do to edit those. I didn't write one myself but I edited them and I solicited the writers And my editor at Beacon Press, which puts out Super Freaks, which is putting out Super Freaks, invited me, contacted me and said would you? because she found my the series on The Rumpus and said would you be interested in writing a nonfiction book about kink? And I jumped at the chance. 

0:10:13 - Danielle Bezalel

Absolutely. 

0:10:14 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, and it was, and then the pandemic hit, I think, and I was so grateful to have this fun project to work on, while I couldn't really go to. You know a lot of kink events and things like that And I can. I consider myself a lifelong fetishist and somebody who's been thinking about this since for as long as I can remember. I've been a member of kink community for over a decade. So that's kind of where I come to with this. It's definitely a different kind of project for me, although my last book of poems was two books ago. It was really dirty, sexy poems about feminist sexual pleasure, female women sexual pleasure, women identified sexual pleasure, queer people sexual pleasure, non monogamy, things like that. But it's poems and not everybody's gonna read poems. Let's be honest. 

0:11:02 - Speaker 2

I'm well aware of this fact. 

0:11:04 - Arielle Greenberg

So I'm really glad for the chance to be able to talk about these subjects in a book that, hopefully, is a really fun read for folks. 

0:11:12 - Danielle Bezalel

Wow. So you have a lot, a lot of different angles here when it comes to being a writer, being someone who edits other folks's work, being a long time kinkster yourself and someone in the community. You have the research, as you mentioned, which I would love to get into a little bit later. I'm sure we will, but I would kind of love to know, like as a long time practitioner of kink, right like, what has really shifted over the last decades And why. Why are these shifts happening? 

0:11:43 - Arielle Greenberg

It's a great question. I think that basically what's happened is since the rise of the internet, which I am of the age that, just as I was kind of coming into my late teens and early 20s, people started having access to the worldwide webs And there was something called alt dot sex, dot. Well, alt dot sex I used in the very early days, which I was an early adopter of, like when I was in college basically. So I've been sort of connecting with other folks around kink since you know, the early 90s, and what I think happened is, you know, once, as soon as the internet was invented, of course people started using it for porn or right, of course. So we're humans. 

So that has meant that there is this proliferation of information and resources and erotica and all sorts of things around, all kinds of non normative sexuality that would have previously been really hard to get your hands on right. So there have long been maybe always underground kinky publications, but back in the day you would have had to go to a city and find that one underground store and go to the back room and ask for the stuff in the paper bags or whatever. And now, of course, you can just Google or go on YouTube. So I think that that has meant that a lot more people have the name for, have a name for what they do or what they love, and also are able to get exposed to a lot more kinds of things. 

I think that has pros and cons. I think that, you know, it's wonderful that there's more conversation, more resources, more naming. I think that can help people feel a lot less alone and a lot less ashamed or embarrassed. But I also think, of course, that some of this material is not appropriate for everybody to get their hands on. Young people are identifying as kinky or like being aware of that much earlier. And you know, listen, I knew I was kinky from the time I was pre adolescent. It's not like I would have had to. I didn't stumble across any material that taught me that it was. It's my orientation, it was always in me, but I think for I'm glad I didn't have access to sort of like really intense porn at that young of an age. 

Yeah, as a kid And that I made do with what I had which was like my imagination, kids, cartoons and the dictionary basically Just like getting off to the dictionary Totally. I have read many and heard many fetishes talk about literally getting off to the dictionary definition of their thing because that's all they had. So they just look up rope or they look up whatever it is And then you're like, oh, it's just somebody talking about the original like romance novel is just like reading the dictionary dictionary definition. 

Yeah, Maryam Webster, who knew? But yes, so I think that you know it also, whereas I think in the past, if you were, let's say, really into high heel shoes, you would buy your like little underground pamphlet just of pictures of high heel shoes And and that's that's it. It was very niche Kink tends to be very niche, And so that's appropriate. But now folks can go to kink events and go online to some place like BetLife and read about all different kinds of kink and learn about things they may have never heard of or thought of themselves. And so I think there's also a lot more people who are like, oh, let me just try this, or who are more kind of fluid in what they, how they identify and what they get into, because they can be, because they know about these other things, whereas in the past, i think, you just went after the one thing you knew you were into and that's what you got, you know. 

0:15:47 - Danielle Bezalel

Right, totally, yeah. I mean, i think like this point about like young people today, specifically, like you know, 11 year olds, 12 year olds, who are accessing porn for the first time on average, that is the age in the US, and I think it's really important that we kind of like draw this line where, like, young people are going to have access to the internet, like most young people do in this country and in the world, and we need to be teaching them porn literacy And we need to say like Hey, this actually isn't appropriate for you. And if you do see these messages, like let's talk about why some of them are harmful, or why this is really important for you to know, and like when you're 18, that is a more appropriate time for you to be accessing that content. And we can say that all we want And, like middle schoolers only really care about what other middle schoolers say, right, like they don't give a shit about, like what their parents they're like mom, you can shut up now. 

Like I never want to hear you speak again, but I think it's important for listeners to wrestle with this idea that like, yes, it is inappropriate And yes, kids are accessing it. So, how do we create this harm reduction approach for youth and at the same time not make them feel ashamed or embarrassed because, as we know, it sticks with us later in life? And so I'm wondering, you know, for people who are like King positive right, like in your book, do you kind of talk about how messages from adolescents and how experiences from adolescents kind of influence kink and the desire for experimentation with kink later in life? 

0:17:34 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, that is not a topic that I have covered. My book is really meant for 18 up, I would say, and I am the mother of two kids, two teens actually, and you know what I just said from personal experiences with my 14 year old. His computer is in a public space in the house, in the living room, where everybody can walk through. It's not in his room. His older sister's computer is in her room, but you know she's 18. And for him. So I walk in and we see, and I would say that most of what he's finding that borders aren't inappropriate is by accident. He's searching for a term and he's looking at an image search And there's like DeviantArt that's coming up and stuff like that. And you know I'm open with my. 

I talk a lot about sex with my kids. 

I'm open with my kids about non monogamy and kink in ways that are age appropriate And we just use it as an opportunity to talk about it and ask questions. 

And I am not averse to walking into the room, seeing what he's looking at and being like huh, let's talk about better search terms for this so that we get rid of some of this inappropriate content, because that's not really what you're trying to be looking for right now. 

And then we also talk about, you know, unrealistic expectations in porn and damaging messages in porn, and you know what kind, that there's better quality porn out there and more positive and feminist and anti racist porn out there And there's not such great porn out there like anything else. And that when the time comes that they are interested in accessing porn or erotica, let's say I am glad to have, like give them some tips on finding stuff that is appropriate. Yeah, yeah, maybe not so far as links, but saying like let's talk about what makes this, what would make this, you know, positive, and also saying, listen, most people access porn. It's, there's nothing wrong with that And that's okay, but it's about finding what stuff that you feel is comfortable for you And that respects. You know that is within the realm of respecting consent. 

0:19:42 - Danielle Bezalel

Totally, yeah, really helpful to have a parent who can speak to this lived experience. Because, yeah, i think, like I don't know with with kink and like figuring that out, like I feel like oftentimes you know I haven't necessarily heard what you said before of like oh, this was like my orientation as like an adolescent right, whereas what I think about kink is like when you start seeing media that have that, or read, you know books that have that, or you know, if you meet a partner who like wants to explore that with you like later in life. So, yeah, I think that's an interesting way to think about that. I mean similar to sexual orientation and like the other parts that make up your identity. Like you often know those parts of you or at least have thought about it or have had mixed feelings about it from youth, and so that makes sense to me that like those kinds of things would also come up for kink. 

0:20:36 - Arielle Greenberg

Absolutely, I think, especially for those of us who identify as fetishists. Most people that I've listened to talk about this say that they can trace this back to early childhood. We're talking pre sort of. I don't really think of humans as presexual at any time, because I think you know from birth to the yes, right So, but you know, certainly pre adolescent. 

I know that I was having basically the same kind of fantasies I still mostly fantasize about at the age of five, you know six, And I've heard other people with other fetishes talk about that in a similar way. So, yeah, i do think that's a big difference now is that people can sort of like tap in to this thing that they've heard about and be like, oh, that sounds kind of interesting, versus that experience of knowing that you have a sexuality that doesn't quite align with what the culture is telling you you're supposed to have from a very early age, which I totally agree, it's completely analogous to identifying or knowing, having some sense that you are queer or trans, as you know, from a very young age. 

0:21:44 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, and I'm sure like listener, maybe you're thinking like that's weird for me to think of like a young person, like thinking about kink And like the reality is is like fantasy kind of like doesn't really have limits, And like there are all of these things that are impacting us around us And like the idea of thinking about those things versus actually doing them are very different. So I want to make sure that that is very clear to the listener. 

0:22:08 - Arielle Greenberg

Yes, no, i was not sexually active at all until I was like a senior in high school trust me, i barely was kissed before then But I had a very active sexual imagination and it was all in my head And and I, you know, and it was very, in its way, wholesome, i guess I would say like there was no sort of trauma around it or anything like that. 

And I know that I've, you know, definitely talked to other kids who identify, who know that they have, you know, a specific kind of attraction or desire from a young age. And I would say, you know, certainly I have many adult friends who talk about knowing that they were, let's say, gay or lesbian when they were five, because their parent was saying, or you know people, the culture was saying, like you're supposed to be attracted to this And they had a very clear sense inside of them. If you talk to gay men especially, I think you will find them, almost all of them or many of them, will say like I had these attractions from the time I was very young And I, you know, before I was interested in acting on them. But if somebody said something like isn't this woman, you know? like you should have a poster of whoever is Kim Kardashian on your wall And I was like I really want Justin Bieber like that. That is very clear to you, right? Those crushes and early, early attractions, yeah. 

0:23:29 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, yeah, and it's really it's important that, like the adults in our lives are like very conscientious about the way that we respond to young people, like we're going to fuck up and we're going to like not get it right. But I do think that there needs to be some room for parents and caregivers to be like I don't really know like what to say right now, but I'm just going to put on a good face and like do some research and then maybe come back and maybe I'll consult a therapist or a sex educator or whoever needs to be consulted about this. If you're kind of like I don't really know what to do with this, and especially with the way in which LGBTQ plus like terms and like language and the way that we think about relationships and being with other people, is shifting a lot and like changing, and so I think it's it's you know, we don't know what we don't know yet, and I think it's just important that parents and caregivers are like open to like figuring that out with their kid, absolutely. 

0:24:22 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, okay. 

0:24:25 - Danielle Bezalel

Moving along here, we need to get into kink. I would love for you, as you know, a researcher, writer of Super Freaks, to talk a little bit about what you chat about in this book. And so one of the first questions that I have here, which is kind of like a three-parter. So take it with what you will, you know I would love for you to go over the difference between like a kink and a fetish and maybe define a fetishist. You've used that term a couple of times now. That would be really helpful. And then some sub questions of that are like what are some of the most common like kinks and fetishes according to research? And then what are maybe some of the least common? And I'm wondering if this least common question is maybe empowering for folks who have this, these preferences, or are we perpetuating stigma by asking that? Or is it maybe like both? 

So those are all, I'll throw all those at you and see what sticks here. 

0:25:21 - Arielle Greenberg

Cool, great. So yes, I think of kink as the umbrella term, sort of like queer is, you know the current umbrella term for lots of stuff within LGBTQ plus identities. So kink is like the broadest possible umbrella term as it's usually used And sort of under kink. I think of two sorts of subsections. One is BDSM, and that is the most commonly written about and represented stuff of kink. But there's a lot of stuff in there. 

So BDSM, which you've probably gone over before and or so, but it's really helpful like the Swiss Army knife of an acronym, because the different letters stand for different things. So B and D is bondage and discipline. So we're talking about things like tying people up with rope or handcuffs and maybe spanking and or psychological discipline. DS stands for dominance and submission, so that's power exchange, role play kind of stuff And most people have heard of at least dominance and submission. And then the SM stands for sadism and masochism, which has to do with in getting erotic pleasure out of receiving or administering pain quote, unquote or discomfort or sent, let's say sensory, sensory, intense sensory experiences, because not all sadists or masochists are really interested in like pain per se and they don't experience it as pain per se, if they're enjoying it, necessarily, and then so all that stuff. 

BDSM covers a lot of, you know, a lot of what goes on within the kink world, or what gets called kinky sexuality, but it doesn't cover fetishes, which are And if so, a fetishist or a fetish is a kind of kinky sexuality in which the focus is on a very particular behavior or object or set of behaviors or Relation to between objects that's not usually thought of as erotic by the culture and the context that you're living in, but which has like an almost magical Draw for the fetishist. so, you know, the idea of a fetish comes from the original, like a folk culture fetish, you know, we think of like a little carved object or something like that that You would put on an altar or carry in your pocket or be buried within. many of us still, you know, use fetishes in that way, like a, like a, a rosary, you know, can be a sort of like a fetish object almost, or you, or crystals, you know, in a pouch that you carry Where you feel like, oh, this is protecting me in some way or like giving me power or helping me, um, and for fetish, like erotic fetishists, uh well, that's, that's the way we use that term, um, it's, you know that can be a shoe, or a part of the body, or, uh, the Eiffel Tower, as I talk about in my book in one chapter, um, and people really feel this erotic Attraction to that, and it can be, as you know, it can be, um, let's say, an action like smoking, like there are smoking fetishists where they just really want to watch someone Smoke, but so let's just say that again, this is really particular, and so a smoking fetishist, that's a, in the end that ends up being a really broad category, because within that, a smoking fetishist might be really into seeing someone smoke a cigar, uh, while sitting in like an armchair, dressed in a suit, and that is their fath, their smoking fetish. and somebody else may be really attracted to Watching someone put their cigarette out with the toe of their combat boot, and those are both smoking fetishists. but they may look for, like their, the porn that is good for this guy Is not working for that guy, because they, what they are attracted to, is so specific and different, you know, in the end. 

and so there's all different kinds of fetishes and, um, the most common one is definitely feet and shoes. I mean, that's the one people have heard about the most. um, and, yeah, I mean that one comes up a lot. I don't, you know it's hard to quote stats on this stuff because, of course, most people don't want to really want to talk about what they're most, uh, sexually attracted to if they think it's, you know, odd or unusual, but certainly, you know, if, if like a fet life search or things like that, or Representations in media or any indication, then sure, shoe and foot fetishes and they go back a long time, um, and there's, you know, definitely, stuff in history about There are fetish. 

There are examples of clearly fetishistic footwear That date back to ancient times, right in all different kinds of cultures, um, so that's probably one of the most common ones. There's also kind of because, uh, related to your question earlier about what's changed In the last few decades I think part of what's happened is now that people can access more information is that there are Kind of kinks, that trend, which I don't think used to be a thing. 

0:30:25 - Danielle Bezalel

There was no talking, talking more about that. What's trending? 

0:30:29 - Arielle Greenberg

Uh, rope, I would say at last. When I was, you know, last able to kind of attend events before the pandemic, uh, rope was definitely trending. So it went from being like, yeah, there'd be some rope workshops at events that I would attend to, the majority of things would be about rope and um, and there'd be more vendors of rope and rope equipment and more You know classes about that and more websites and things like that. It just really seemed to kind of I don't know Capture the imagination of a lot of folks in the community and a lot of different people are, um, certainly experimenting with it. Um, but you know, historically I would say Sadism and masochism and the actions that go with those spanking, bondage, things like that Um, are certainly sort of perennial popular kinks. Yeah, in terms of least common. Uh. I mean I just think like that, as I just described, with the smoking fetishes, like There's lots of uncommon fetishes out there and some of them don't even really have a name, or even if they do have a name, like I'm a smoking fetishist, it's like what does that mean? And there might be nobody else out there that I can find. That has my particular set of parameters and requirements for what makes the ideal fantasy of you know of my fetish, and I don't, i don't know that. 

I think that that's Empowering, necessarily because I think it can make it quite hard to kind of find a willing partner and You know, really describe what you're into. Because even if you say to your partner, you know what, i have a little bit of a foot fetish, they might be like great, i want them pedicure, give me a pedicure now, boy, you know, and that person might be like no, no, no, no, no, uh, i I'm not submissive and my foot fetish It's like I don't, i don't want to give anybody a pedicure. I like watching people run around barefoot, stinky, dirty feet And then kissing those afterwards, and the person who wanted the pedicure or the partner could be like um, no, i'm not into that. So anyway, you know all we just to say like I just think the specifics of fetish fetishes Can make it a little, it can make things a little challenging And And, but I don't think that that shit. I hope that that doesn't perpetuate stigma. Um, I think you know We can talk more about sort of outlets for those kinds of things. 

But I think that there is, hope springs eternal that you can find, if not a willing partner, then maybe The right erotica for you. So you can at least like, explore this in your, in your mind and in your privacy by yourself. Or What I would say about. If you have something in your partner's just like, yeah, no, that's not, i'm not into that, you can. Maybe they would be into playing with it by just pretending, role playing or telling a story about it, even if they don't enact it. 

And sometimes that can be just as good, because for a lot of kinky folks, psychology Is as important, if not more so, than the toys and the props and the actions and all of that stuff. And I think that that unfortunately sometimes doesn't, um, get understood or gets kind of thrown out the window. Because now We do have access to all these fun toys and props and a million different kinds of rope And you can just spend all day looking at rope colors, you know, online or whatever. Um, but you're probably into rope because There's something about the psychology of rope or the dynamic of being tied up or tying somebody else up, or walking around with rope underneath your clothing or smelling rope or whatever it is that you're into, or being suspended, or whatever it is that you're into. That is deeper than that. You know That. That's about what's happening in your mind when you're thinking about that. 

0:30:25 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of interesting pieces here. Okay, like, maybe this is something that you'd like to just think of by yourself. And if you, if that's what you want, then that's great because you have your imagination. And if you want to tell your partner that you're into that, there's a lot of power, i feel, like in description and like talking about things in order to kind of spark the imagination as kind of maybe like a middle ground if, like, someone is not interested in maybe acting out literally what the other person is talking about. But, however, when you think, when you say the thing about smoking. When you first said that, I myself was kind of like oh, like I don't like cigarettes. I think that's gross, like I don't like that. And then, when you said armchair in a suit, I immediately thought of Don Draper and Mad Men. Yeah, i was like um, yeah, i want to fuck Don Draper, like he's very hot, makes sense to me. 

So, like you know, to your point, maybe people feel like that is something only they have ever thought of, but people will tell you who are into kink and like people who have researched kink, like you. And I read a book for someone last season who was on my podcast, called Arousing History of Sex by Rachel Felton, and she has an amazing kink chapter in there And she mentions that if you think that you're the first person to like think about your kink or fetish, someone else in history has done that. Like someone else has thought of that and like try not to feel so weird about it. 

0:39:39 - Arielle Greenberg

Totally. I mean really. All you have to do is look on YouTube to have that proven to yourself. 

0:39:44 - Danielle Bezalel

I mean I read it or tumbler. 

0:39:46 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah right, I mean I write about this in the book, but you know, as a kid who didn't have access, you know who shouldn't have had and didn't have access to actual porn. There's so much kinky stuff in kids cartoons because it's just like so fantastic and absurdist And so you know, whatever it is you're into, there's probably some cartoon representation of it And I, because of my fetish, i really was turned on by like the scene of Templeton the rat in the cartoon of Charlotte's web, overdoing it at the fair, because I have, like this fetish for hedonistic indulgence and other people And that's pretty freaking weird. Like he's. He's a rat. I hate rats, I'm terrified of rats, I can't watch real rats at all. Like and you know he's talking about eating at a fairground and he's singing a musical number. He's played by a clearly gay man. Like the whole thing is just like what, what, and. But if you Google it, you will find many other people being like, oh my God. The most exciting thing to me was Templeton the rat. Oh my God see. 

I found like 1000 hits for something like that of people talking about sexy Templeton, the rat, whatever. 

So yeah, and I mean I think the Don Draper example is great because like maybe what that's really about is power, or like what you're attracted to there is power or authority, and maybe the person who's into people putting cigarettes out with their high heel shoe is in it's actually interested in submission or you know, in like a sense of that, that. Or there's something sort of nonchalant about that smoker or like taboo, because smoking is bad for you and cigarettes are disgusting And so like that they have the gall to do. That is like so naughty And that's what's turned and turned on to them, which might be totally different than the psychology behind the turn on for the, you know, the Don Draper person. 

0:41:36 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, speaking of Templeton the rat, let's talk about the media. I want to. I want to hear from you as someone who has done a lot of this research and, kind of like anecdotally, has talked with people and done a lot of thinking and, you know, looking stuff up for this book, like what are some of the best, most recent representations of kink? Maybe we'll do like one of each, if you can think of it, like one in literature, one in film, maybe one in either TV or music or something like that. 

0:42:04 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, I love this topic. My book really has a lot of pop culture stuff in it because I love pop culture and yeah, representation matters, as we know, and there's so little good representation of BDSM and kink out there. So for a film I definitely have a recommendation that even most people I talked to deep in the kink community have never heard of, or never seen. It's called the Duke of Burgundy. It's from the 2000s but I can't remember exactly how old it is now. It's a small independent film. One of the things that's fascinating about it is that there are no men in the film whatsoever, only women characters. And you know not to spoil it, but like you'll figure this out pretty quickly You see what at first seems like maybe an abusive relationship between two women who seem to also be very wealthy, and then you quickly come to realize it's a consensual role like 24, seven power exchange, ds, role play relationship. 

Very deep. It's the. It's a weird film. It's inspired by 70s softcore Italian horror porn, so it's got this kind of like horary tone to it but it doesn't actually ever really go there And and it's got it gets. It feels very like a 70s softcore porn movie. It feels very kind of gauzy and dreamy and sort of cerebral and weird, but it also does actually have a sense of humor about itself, which is pretty subtle and dry. 

But there's a great scene where the one one, the submissive character, is basically like ordering the supplies that she wants to act out her fantasy And you can see how controlling the submissive is like choosing the stuff. You know, it's not the dominant who goes out and is like Oh, you know, I'm going to buy you this, this and this, so you can, we can do this fantasy. It's the submissive who's like Yeah, I want this, it's really expensive, I'm custom ordering it exactly to my specifications. And there's a little tension between her and her partner about like I don't know if we should spend this money whatsoever. It's very realistic, I think, in terms of showing that the dog, just because the person is playing the role of the dominant, doesn't mean they're actually in charge or in control or steering the relationship. Lots of times that's the person, that submissive role, because both roles are a kind of elaborate game of pretend. 

So that movie is, I think, fascinating And the relationship. That dynamic, the power exchange dynamic, is really at the core of the movie. Often you'll see like there's a Dom who is like a pro Dom who walks on the screen for half a minute, or there's like one scene of blindfolding or something like that. But this movie is about their power exchange relationship. Yeah, for literature, I recommend anthologies edited by Rachel Kramer Bussle. She's edited things like the big book of submission, best bondage, erotica, and she goes through submissions and different kinds of submission and finds the best that's out there And so those books have a really great range. 

I also love Sinclair Sexsmith as a writer themselves but also the editor of things like sweet and rough, queer, kink, erotica and a lot of things sort of in the DS power exchange, sm space. I love Lana Del Rey’s You can be the boss. As a song about a DS relationship. It's like you can be the boss, daddy can be the boss. But it's clear in the song like she is, so you know the singer is encouraging and attracted to the sort of bad boy persona. But you can see also that she's not like what it means for her to sort of be a submissive. It is, again, not passive. 

You can, you can be the boss, daddy. Like I'm giving you permission to enact this role. I'm allowing you to be the boss, yeah, yeah, like, because I choose that, because I like it And I love that little subtlety to it. And then I just have to give a shout out because the other day I heard this old song in the 80s new wave song by the band X DC And I love this song and I've heard it many times but I never really paid attention to the lyrics. It's called grass and it's about basically teenagers and love having sex outside, which itself is a little kinky. But also the second line of the song is the way you slap my face just fills me with desire. 

0:46:46 - Danielle Bezalel

Oh my, I just got a little chills. 

0:46:50 - Arielle Greenberg

And it's a male singer And and then the whole song is just about like we flat over and over, we flat in the clover because they're taking a tumble in the grass. 

0:46:59 - Danielle Bezalel

Wow, so cute and sweet and it's a great song. 

Yeah, I'm into that. Yeah, I mean I think, like to your point earlier, like it's hard to have stats on how many people are kinky, right, But I just genuinely feel like everyone has a little something that they are interested in or that they are. You know. Focusing on that maybe is a little outside the quote unquote norm, because, like what is the norm right? Like it's being rewritten all the time Exactly. It's just kind of okay, like more quote unquote vanilla sex, like people are still having that, But like who knows what's going on in people's heads? Like how do we know how kinky people are right? 

0:47:44 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, absolutely. And, as you say, it's totally culturally contextual. So what's kinky to us now might have been like what everybody did in such and such a place and time. You know, we know that at other places in time certain kinds of things that we think of as completely taboo now were commonplace, like adult men having sex with young boys in ancient Greece, for example, or, you know, foot binding or whatever it is. So, yeah, I mean that what we say, you know, I am very careful, it's very clear to me and I hope I make it very clear in my book, like being queer, for example, is not kinky, it's sexual orientation, but it's certain places and times. Sodomy, of course, like anal sex, has been out a lot and still is, i think, on the books in some places, even though we all know now that that is an extra, like the most maybe commonplace kind of sexual activity between two people with penises, like, yeah, no big deal. But you know, for certain, at certain places in time that was, you know, absolutely, absolutely, we're both in Yeah. 

0:48:59 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, i mean I think like it's really important to mention what you just said in terms of, okay, like being queer or having a queer identity doesn't inherently equal kinkiness, and at the same time I do think folks in the queer community are more readily available to access, like kinky conversations and acts. In your book do you talk at all about the overlap between queerness and the king community in that way? 

0:49:28 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, well, I mean literally that I think there would be no kink community without queer folks, because the places where kink identity was historically formed and people learn things was through gay bars, leather clubs, leather families. You know just gay neighborhoods which would historically have shops where you could buy, let's say, leather. You know cool harnesses and things like that. 

Yeah, there's, we owe all of us in the kink community an enormous debt to our elders in the queer community who fostered that kind of network and connection at a time when that was Off and illegal and dangerous and you were risking persecution and jail time and things like that. And yeah, there's. So there's, there's. You know there's wonderful overlap, there's wonderful historical overlap and you know this is a whole other conversation as we were recording this in pride month. But you know the movement to unfortunately sort of like, i would say, sort of sterilize pride, as this like family friendly event that's just like sanitized and corporate sponsors and all of that, and pushes kinky folks to the margins, is a huge disservice and not in keeping with Our history, the history of pride, which, from its very beginning, was inclusive of and even run by folks who identified as kinky within the gay, specifically gay and lesbian communities totally, yeah, really, really important. 

0:51:11 - Danielle Bezalel

Call out thank you for saying that and I think that's a good way to put it like sterilize, like this idea, like kind of like rainbow washing everything And, just for you know, whatever capitalistic benefit, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, really, really important. 

0:51:24 - Arielle Greenberg

Great that the new pride pride flag, which you know is also more inclusive of trans identities and and multiple kinds of gender Also is inclusive of like the kink colors, that the leather, specifically leather colors, and sometimes like bear community and things like that, which are all sort of like kinks within that were historically like within the gay and lesbian communities totally. 

0:51:52 - Danielle Bezalel

In your book you have a couple of really, really fun quizzes and I thought it could be really fun to kind of like close us out here on this episode. If you can kind of administer a couple of questions to me, live, so the listener while you are hearing me answer, maybe would help you reflect on your own answer and consider where you're at with kink and your kink journey. 

0:52:18 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, super fun. so I have a whole quiz about compatibility with a partner, because I think often, too often, compatibility is thought of just in terms of like, a libido. and what does that even mean like? Does that mean like how much sex you want to have, or how much you masturbate or like, or how much desire you just sort of have actively in your body at any given time? I don't know, like who knows really. you know there are, there are good definitions about that, and beacon is actually publishing a book about this question. But yeah, I mean, compatibility goes so much, is so much more complex and layered than that, especially if you or your partner identifies as kinky, because you're probably not thinking about whether my fetish matches up with this person's sexual desires. So the compatibility quiz starts out with some pretty, you know kind of vanilla questions and then gets more deeply into kinky questions. 

0:53:16 - Danielle Bezalel

And just a note, not to put my partner on blast he's a completely different human. I'm gonna act as if I'm dating myself, because you know I'm just gonna answer for myself. Yeah, my partner is kind of his own life, his own choices as to however he would or wouldn't want to say anything, so I'm just gonna answer for myself. 

0:53:36 - Arielle Greenberg

Absolutely, and I put some questions I thought would be good for that. So the first one is, as a general rule, like I love thinking about this. As You know, some dogs are food motivated and some dogs are praise motivated. so, as a human being, how sex motivated are you, and like so, and what does that mean to you? like how much, how important is sex in your life? 

0:54:01 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, I would. I would say it is important. I wouldn't say it's the most important thing. I think it's just as important as other kinds of pieces for myself. So you know, for example, like physical touch, or I love like praise, we can talk about that, love, praise love. 

0:54:20 - Danielle Bezalel

Really love, yeah, like love language right, like if we're thinking about sex as a part of like physical touch, then I definitely find other pieces really important quality time, access, like I'm. I'm a huge spectrum of love languages, kind of person to give and receive, so I would say it's important, but not the most important thing to me. 

0:54:40 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, and so, with that in mind, how off, like, if you could choose how often you had sex with a partner? How often would you say that was? 

0:54:50 - Danielle Bezalel

It's hard to put a number on it because I feel like it's so dependent on other things that are going on. But I feel like, instead of just like partnered sex, I'm gonna frame it as pleasure in general. 

I feel like two times a week feels really good for me, where it's just like okay, I like dedicating time to this slash, like if I feel those like butterflies, like horny feelings in my body and mind that I want to act on them. So I think like two would be a good number per week. 

0:55:22 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, and I think that's so useful and interesting because I think there's a lot of assumptions about what it means to want sex frequently, and for some people that can mean once a month and for some people that can mean twice a day, and you have to check in, right. You don't know what frequently means unless you ask, right? So I think that's great and yeah, and of course it's going to depend on a million different factors. But I think I have found with partners in my past that they tend to have sort of pretty set cycles, like I need to have sex about once a month to feel like regulated in my body and spirit, or I need to have sex once a week and you have sex once a day. 

Like that really varies from person to person. Okay, what tone do you tend to prefer your sex to have? do you tend to like it to be more gentle or exciting or chatty or serene, or you know, because I think also we tend to think about that in terms of a binary of like rough or gentle, but there's so many different tones. I know people who like joking around while they're having sex and I like others. I know other people who are like no, no, joking during sex. 

0:56:33 - Danielle Bezalel

Right, serious thing. Yeah, I'm the same kind of thing like I think I'm not really someone who likes, wants it a certain way every single time. Like I think, like I get a lot of pleasure and excitement out of all different kinds of modes, whether that can be chatty, whether that can be kind of like being in the submissive role or the dominant role, or like listening to certain music. Like I think it really isn't like a certain way, it's a very stagnant thing for me. It's super kind of dependent on my feelings at the moment. 

0:57:08 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, and again, like I think that would be great, that's great, great thing for a partner to know, because you could end up with a partner right who did have a very static notion of like every time I want to go have sex I want it to be like tantric and woo with candles and chimes or whatever or you know something else, and that there maybe they would need a little help or encouragement to kind of think about a different tone that sex could have, that a sexual experience. 

And then let's do one more thing that's more about kink. So how do you feel about power dynamics in your erotic life? like, do you like to have a little bit of power, tension and play, or do you really feel more comfortable with a very egalitarian kind of approach where No one person has more power than the other, which I think as feminists, a lot of us are really trained to think that we want egalitarian sexual experiences or sexual experiences that don't feel ever like they border on playing with things like danger or authority, but of course that's not true for all feminists in terms of what we actually want. 

0:58:21 - Danielle Bezalel

Yeah, i very much in my everyday life and in the bedroom, everywhere I exist, and a feminist, and I very much like power dynamic play with my partner and think that it is yeah, again, not necessarily always like being dominated or the submissive one, you know, it's like a both and kind of thing and like maybe sometimes it does feel good to have it equal, yeah, like for me. And that's why I find it really interesting when people just identify as like one or the other, because that is very much not my experience. I really like to run the gamut and the full area of play, but I do really enjoy, yeah, power dynamic play. 

0:59:10 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, which again I think is a really good thing for partners to know, because I think also, if you are a woman identified person who's partnering with male masculine identified person, a lot of really lovely, smart, thoughtful masculine identified folks out there are understandably concerned that they don't treat a female identified partner with anything other than like total respect and you know all the good things were taught, but that might not be what your partner wants in the bedroom. 

It's probably what they want everywhere else in life. Like I certainly want that every once in life, but maybe not as much, you know, in an erotic space. I'm somebody who in my everyday life is like super in control and opinionated and forceful and responsible, and a planner and a mom and, you know, somebody with a job, and I love in an erotic space to like let go of all that responsibility and be the sort of more submissive role. I almost never want to be in that dominant role because I feel like it's so much what I do, it's too much already. 

Yeah, it's like. yeah, i'm already doing it. Thanks, not, not, not sexy to me. 

1:00:27 - Danielle Bezalel

Totally. Yeah, that's so awesome. I'm so, so glad that you are here and that we had this very, very fun conversation around kink and, as you said, like this is an umbrella term like if you're someone who's listening and you're interested in learning more about your own kinky journey, definitely check out all the quizzes and all the information and amazing writing in Super Freaks by Arielle, and I'm wondering, arielle, if you can share where folk can find you and learn more and read Super Freaks. 

1:00:58 - Arielle Greenberg

Yeah, thank you, my. I'm on Instagram with my sort of writer Lee account as Arielle underscore Greenberg and I'm sure you'll put that in the show notes with the right spelling. And the book is coming out from Beacon Press so you can go on Beacon's website to read all about the book and you can order it from any place books are sold, although, of course, we encourage you to go to your local bookstore. Yes, do that. Yes. 

1:01:23 - Danielle Bezalel

Amazing, awesome. And when? When is that? has that? it is out. 

1:01:27 - Arielle Greenberg

August 1st. 

1:01:28 - Danielle Bezalel

August 1st. We have a little bit of time, so maybe folks can preorder it. 

1:01:32 - Arielle Greenberg

They can. they can preorder it from Beacon Yes Or from your local independent bookstore. they can have it in for you as soon as it comes out. 

1:01:39 - Danielle Bezalel

Great, yeah, make a little note in your calendar or go preorder it. Arielle, thank you so much for being on today. 

1:01:46 - Arielle Greenberg

Thank you so much for having me. Great, great. Thank you.